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Post by froj on May 3, 2007 14:43:47 GMT
Hi I just got a shamisen and am starting to learn it. I have a tsugaru shamisen book with basic lessons and some tabs (I live in UK and cannot read japanese). This is the only english forum I can find dealing with asian instruments in such depth. (I will be joining the guqin discussions as soon as mine arrives)
If anyone does play, one thing I am having trouble with is up strokes with the bachi. In videos I have seen players do not seem to move the position or angle of the plectrum much, but when I try and play like that the strings catch on it every time, I have more success angling it at almost a right angle from the strings on the way back up because I am used to playing guitar I assume. I know this technique can't be right from what I've seen though.
If anyone has any tips I would be most grateful, or if anyone knows of any other english speaking japanese musicians forums that would be great too!
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 4, 2007 9:37:05 GMT
Well, I don't think much, if at all any, of us can play Japanese instruments. I got a shamisen book as well, so I might look through it to see, but don't expect anything 'expert' from me...
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Post by froj on May 4, 2007 9:57:53 GMT
Thankyou for your reply charlie, any general idea of how upsrokes or tremolo should be played would be a massive help
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 4, 2007 15:51:17 GMT
My Japanese isn't good, but to do the upstrokes (called 'sukui bachi'), you use the tip of the bachi to flick the string. The angle is around 50 degrees (looking at the picture) from the fingerboard. I think it is all to do with wrist action and not to push the bachi upwards, thereby slipping the tip under the strings and catching it.
For tremolo, called 'chiri chiri bachi', you let the tip of the bachi hover (i.e. don't move the hand) over the strings, then flip the bachi down and up. Intuitively, I think the action should be minuet and rely on the wrist.
Of course, I could be absolutely wrong as I do not play the shamisen or have one in front of me to try it out on.
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Post by froj on May 4, 2007 16:23:20 GMT
Thankyou that is very helpful, I think I do the upstrokes right if that is the case, just need to hone it and make the angle a bit smaller with practice. I think the tremolo is just a very difficult technique that will come with long practice. Thanks again for your time and knowledge, and willingness to help
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Post by kyokuhon on May 8, 2007 17:48:48 GMT
Hi, froj and all. I, too, am just beginning to try to teach myself tsugaru shamisen, and also play guitar and mandolin, etc. I've found looking at the many videos on youtube, plus the DVD of Michihiro Sato to be very useful. From what I can see, Charles' advice is good. Let's keep in touch about this! Best, and keep playing. K.
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Post by froj on May 8, 2007 18:41:00 GMT
Cool, having someone to chat will be helpful. I play guitar (classical, acoustic, electric), mandolin (a bit when needed) also. I think that is the main problem I'm having adjusting to the accute angles playing with the bachi, as opposed to the constant 90degree angle against the strings playing with a pick. The same basic principles apply but the muscle mechanics are so much different. I have 'tsugaru shamisen style book + music CD' by shinichi kinoshita, which has about 10 songs to learn, one of which is roku dan which I've heard by a few shamisen players on youtube, so I think that will be my first main aim to learn that. It's about the 5th song in in the book. I have looked at that dvd on amazon, think I might order it if the price is ok.
cheers, froj
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Post by davidmdahl on May 8, 2007 19:16:27 GMT
There is sort of a variation on the shamisen called the kokyu that is bowed like an erhu (niko). It seems pretty rare, but I ran across a CD by Michiko Wakabayashi that I found very intriguing. Does this sound familiar or interesting to anyone?
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 8, 2007 19:18:53 GMT
There is I think two kokyu vids on YouTube. One of them is Sakura Sakura... It is played in a very perculiar way; you turn the instrument 90 degrees when you change strings.
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Post by froj on May 8, 2007 23:31:34 GMT
Yes I remember seeing that video, it does seem a very strange technique, moving the instrument rather than the bowing arm. It looks like a 2 string instrument like erhu I recall.
That Michihiro Sato dvd is unavailable on amazon uk so I'm going to have to hunt around for it.
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Post by davidmdahl on May 8, 2007 23:49:58 GMT
I have watched the Youtube kokyu videos as well. It is a shame the clips are so short. It is hard to tell from the videos, but I believe that the kokyu has three strings.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by kyokuhon on May 9, 2007 17:51:47 GMT
Hi, all. Actually, the quick bio in my last post was a bit too brief. Though I've just started shamisen, I've been playing Japanese music (shakuhachi, shinobue) much longer than Chinese. The kokyu is rare, from my understanding it was originally used in the classical sankyoku (literally "three music") ensemble with shamisen and koto, but was largely replaced by shakuhachi in the early 1900's. I've heard in a couple of places that some Japanese musicians are now playing something like an erhu and calling it a kokyu. The classic kokyu has three strings and a squarish, shamisen-style body.
froj, yes, it will be good to have support! I think you've actually been playing longer than me: my instrument arrived on Monday and I haven't even had time to tune it up. I did see somewhere (I'll try to look it up) a tsugaru player who had a bachi with a rounded corner more like a guitar pick, which might make the trem smoother.
Do you like the kinoshita book? He's an awesome player. Is it useful enough to justify the $40 or so it costs on ebay? I got the Sato video on ebay, so you could try there.
Anyway, best to all, and keep playing! K.
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Post by froj on May 9, 2007 20:57:49 GMT
I've had my shamisen a week now, arrived last wednesday. A rounder bachi would help as it sticks a lot, but I don't want to cheat as I know it can obviously be done without altering factors.
The kinoshita book's great, wish I could read Japanese though a literally 1/2 the book seems to be an essay of some sort. It shows basic technique and theory and has 10 mini lessons/excercises to run through before songs. It cost me about £17 from that guy on ebay and it's definately worth it, as it comes with a CD with the songs slightly slowed down (I can give you a link to a music program that can slow down music if you want, I worked out a few yoshida brothers licks using it!!!) he's a good guy too he was very helpful when I bought my shamisen. Translated some instructions and drew me some diagrams haha, that was cool of him so I'd gladly reccomend him as a seller.
I want kinoshita's CDs as I assume they'll be 'purer' than yoshida bros and agatsuma without too much fusion stuff (although I enjoy it, I prefer shamisen solo songs). They're nowhere to found to download though so looks like I'll have to spend £20 ($40) on them. Shamisen CDs seem to be hard to come by considering the current popularity of the aforementioned artists. Any reccomendations for players or CDs to look into?
on a side note, my guqin arrived today, going to have a go at tuning it now. It sounds nice though, and the lacquer stinks!
cheers, froj
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 9, 2007 21:10:30 GMT
The (dry) lacquer of the guqin shouldn't stink...
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Post by kyokuhon on May 9, 2007 21:20:56 GMT
Yeah, the lacquer shouldn't stink! (I play guqin too.) Are you sure it's the instrument, not something from the packing or the case? I've got a sanxian whose case smells of coal tar. I think it's the adhesive. I'm hoping it'll dissipate over time. K.
PS thanks for the recommendation on Kinoshita Sensei's book. I don't know of any good source for shamisen Cds, and you're right, paying Japanese prices for CDs can really hurt! K.
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Post by froj on May 9, 2007 22:07:14 GMT
I think it was the casing, I got a semi hard case and also a soft case that it was in. I the soft case really smells of something I just assumed that it would be the lacquer. Now I've had it out for afew hours it just smells of wood. 1st objective complete, my qin is in tune, 5th string to A because I have a chromatic tuner to hand. Made a huge mistake to start off with though, got 1st and 7th string the wrong way round. I thought 1st string was thinnest because I'm used to 1st string being closest to me!! Also used to 1st fret (hui) being furthest away from my body with guitar, learning the chinese notation is hard enough withought confusing myself with normal numbers haha.
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Post by davidmdahl on May 9, 2007 23:04:56 GMT
There are some good shamisen recordings on Multiply.com. That is where I go to find otherwise hard-to-find music. One such link is: japanmp3.multiply.com/musicI think that it is necessary to create an account on Multiply, but so far I have not found any drawbacks for doing so, and it is free. Once you have access, you can also search for "shamisen" and find other links. The search function is not perfect, so sometimes you need to browse a bit on related searches to find what you are looking for. Best wishes, David
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Post by froj on May 9, 2007 23:07:27 GMT
thankyou! much appreciated
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 10, 2007 15:37:54 GMT
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Post by froj on May 10, 2007 16:44:07 GMT
There's a very very shot video on youtube, and this one : youtube.com/watch?v=kQIjaosvrJE the quality is terrible as it skips around alot and even alters pitch, but you can kind of see how it's played. I thought the plectrum for shamisen was big!! This is the size of a fan. I'm not sure how the frets work though, it seems to have 7 but the girl's playing intervals between them I think. Like i said the quality is wierd so it's hard to tell what she's doing. that japan mp3 site has a few good tunes on, There's a lot of agatsuma's solo shamisen stuff which is very impressive, and a very long list of other solo tunes. Thanks for the heads up
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Post by Charlie Huang on May 10, 2007 16:50:35 GMT
Yes, I saw that vid. Shame about the skippy vid, or it'll have been very good! She is playing that satsuma biwa which can have 4 or 5 frets. This is a chikuzen biwa:
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Post by froj on May 12, 2007 10:26:15 GMT
Just a quick update, I figured out yesterday that playing nearer the bridge where the string is less flexible helps with quick up and down strokes. I noticed players on youtube doing this a lot moving up and down the body but didn't know why apart from tonality, maybe this is why? or maybe it just helps me. It also helps to kind of 'flick' or put a bit more power into the stroke so it doesn't drag and catch also. Actual tremolo is still a mystery to me though, one thing I have noticed is that most songs when players use tremolo the sound is much quiter so I assume the hand must be much more relaxed and gentle while playing.
That chikuzan biwa is nice, I wouldn't know what to start playing on it though, shamisen music is hard enough to find and that's a popular instrument
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Post by kyokuhon on May 16, 2007 17:33:01 GMT
Hi, all. First, I stumbled on another Japanese instrument site: www.chordscanada.com/index.html. Haven't had a chance to really get to know my shamisen yet, but I did get a biwa the other day. I, too, have no idea what I'll play on it, but as a lute player I figured I needed to have one. More later... Best, and keep playing. K.
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Post by davidmdahl on May 16, 2007 23:55:05 GMT
Cool. The Chords Canada site lists a kokyu available by special order. I wonder about the quality. Hmmm.
Thanks!
Best wishes,
David
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Post by kyokuhon on May 18, 2007 14:11:51 GMT
Hi, I have no idea about their quality, though at some point I'll order something small from them and see. Is anyone close enough to Toronto to go check them out? K.
PS: Thanks, Charles, for allowing this long Japanese diversion!
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