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Post by Bryan on Sept 23, 2005 13:05:00 GMT
Any of you people have any methods to improve your hand's dexterity to tackle fast songs?
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Post by Vi An on Sept 23, 2005 16:08:19 GMT
The best way I found to become "speedier" is to do the fast sections very slowly everyday and repeat often! Then every day, pick up the pace little by little, paying very close attention to each note, tempo and velocity. At this stage accuracy is ten times more important than speed.. Dexterity comes with repetition of certain actions required of the fingers. Also, general stretching, shaking, rotating and swinging of fingers, hands, wrists and arms is very important before and after playing guzheng. This helps to loosen everything up and allows for better blood flow. DO NOT OVER EXERT the muscles and tendons by stretching way too hard. Lightly and carefully always being aware of pressure and pain!! If there is pain anywhere, just massage with the other hand's fingers gently. Rubbing alchohol helps.
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 23, 2005 17:01:18 GMT
Great topic! I agree with Vi An regarding the value of slow practice. You can't play something fast if you can't play it slowly.
Once I know where the notes are and can play a passage or a tune slowly, I use a technique called "chunking" to gain speed, particularly on challenging sections. Chunking is taking a phrase, two to four notes at a time, and play them quickly up-to-speed as one gesture. Between the two to four note chunks, there is a pause that lets the mind and body get ready for the next chunk. Of course, you can also play any particular chunk over and over to gain comfort and reliability with that group of notes. It is important to play no more quickly than that which will allow you to play the chunk perfectly. You don't want to practice in mistakes!
A key reason that chunking is important for learning to play fast, is that we do different things when we play slowly, beyond the difference in speed. Playing quickly requires an efficiency and economy of movement that playing slowly does not require. If we only practice slowly, we will only learn to play slowly. Bringing a tune up-to-speed then is more difficult.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by paulv on Sept 23, 2005 18:14:56 GMT
Great thread -- Great advice!
Can the thread be annotated with some icon to show that? I know some other forum/message boards I follow have that.
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by carol on Sept 23, 2005 18:29:16 GMT
It also depends on which technique you are aiming to move fast.
Generally:
1. make sure your hand/finger position is correct. going no where with wrong position. 2. use more finger power than wrist power - particular the small joints. If you want to be super fast, then you need strong finger joints 3. Let everywhere loose, but hold your fingers firmly tight 4. Practice slowly with metronome and increase the spead a little at a time to the desired to speed. If are aiming at 160, start with 100, then go 120, 132, 144....
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 23, 2005 19:30:02 GMT
3. Let everywhere loose, but hold your fingers firmly tight I am interested to know what this means, Carol. If I tighten/clench the muscles of my fingers, they hardly move at all let alone move fast. I avoid tightness everywhere. Best wishes, David
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Post by carol on Sept 23, 2005 21:00:46 GMT
Yeah, in the beginning, when you try to hold the fingers tight, your palm will be tight as well. Through repeatedly practice, you will be able to tighten fingers only, specificly the first part of the fingers. Set the fingers tight and make all the power concentrated on the finger tips.
I just came back from the guzheng master seminar in Beijing. All the students from Central Conservatory of Music are able to move their fingers so fast. I barely see their hands moving.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 24, 2005 11:45:23 GMT
Great thread -- Great advice! Can the thread be annotated with some icon to show that? I know some other forum/message boards I follow have that. Regards, Paul Valente Stickied it.
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Post by Vi An on Sept 25, 2005 1:04:48 GMT
Very rapid pieces have very little appeal to me. It really depends. When a piece of music is played too technically I find them very borring. A lot of guzheng performers out there are very great and they are "masters" of their instrument, however I feel they lack a considerable amount of "soul appeal". They are all the same to me at the end of the day. No one performer really stands out and touches my heart. Atleast I haven't seen one yet. I really enjoy pieces with a lot of space to breathe and think. I love the sustain of a note and harmony.
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Post by Bryan on Sept 25, 2005 1:30:41 GMT
Oic...ii dun really like slow pieces cause they tend to drag the song and might even bore the audience, so iim trying to learn che shui luo gu with an amazing speed of 150
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 25, 2005 6:12:21 GMT
I'm with you Vi An. I have found over the years that listeners respond better to expressive music than to showy demonstrations of technique. It is actually more musically challenging to pull off a slow tune with lots of expression. With a fast tune there is simply not as much space to add dynamics and ornamentation. I love to listen to a master play a tune where every note has been sculpted into the whole with loving thought. The technical and mental skill it takes to do this is not inconsequential.
A master can make time stand still while you are waiting for the next note. And it is not boring.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Bryan on Sept 25, 2005 9:58:12 GMT
oic...ii tink that fast tunes can still carry off emotion and can have ornamentation...lol...
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Post by Vi An on Sept 25, 2005 10:12:22 GMT
Yep I am with ya there David,
Thank you for that very elloquent and thoughtful input.
Bordom can not be used in the same context as music. If music bores you perhaps you are not really open to listen deeply. It is a matter of taste -- if you like it or you don't. To say that it is boring means you have no appreciation for the depth of expression. Music is not meant for instant gratification, rather, it is meant for infinite enjoyment and discovery! Discoveries can only be made when you allow notes to linger, when you allow space to breathe and a little time to think... There is a lot of time in music to develop, change and progress.
There is an art and skill to keeping your audience entertained for long periods of time. It is always wise to keep them wanting more. When music becomes too busy, too complicated and too much like an act; its no longer intersting -- just the opposite it is annoying. People would think, oh -- ya again, just another show off trying to play fast to impress but there isn't anything there to "captivate" my soul, it does not "move" me..
A tasteful mariage of fast and slow is highly entertaining. Again, its finding the beautiful middle ground and how the piece of music is executed. It is easy to run through a piece of music as quickly and as accurately as you can, however, it is much more supple and brilliant if you can immerse your listeners in serenity between each note. It is like being at a live auction or being at an informative and engaging lecture... Slower and longer pieces of music does not mean it isn't rhythmic either, you can have a lot of interesting simple rhythms for slower pieces. This is the beauty of "pentatonic scales". It really trains the musician to become more aware of how to create more from less notes! That is talent.. I can play speeds of up to 280 bpm justing just five fingers. My left pointer finger, my right thumb, pointer and middle fingers. I have accompanied for electronic musicians whose tempo can sometimes reach up to 380 bpm and then instantly with no notice fall straight down to 98 bpm or less, electronic genres such as: jungle / drum&bass, down tempo / trip hop, hardcore techno and tribal / funky house anthems. Where the guzheng can start to sound like a super computer thinking really hard!
When notes fall into each other like rain drops upon leaves before the storm, you can hear all the amazing harmonies and microscopic symphonies with in each space between the notes!!
Keep playing and keep listening,
Vi An
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 25, 2005 10:26:50 GMT
Do you think that Westerners like slow pieces as opposed to fast ones? From my experience, yes. And I feel the Chinese (especially those who are uninitiated) tend to want faster pieces.
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Post by Bryan on Sept 25, 2005 11:40:43 GMT
Are you calling me unitiated???
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Post by carol on Sept 25, 2005 16:23:21 GMT
I think slow pieces are more touching. The first time I quit guzheng was after playing 6 months of "Fighting Typhoon". I switched to guqin cause I can't stand that loud noisy music any more. It took me 6 years before I got attracted back to this dynamic instrument.
The fast part isn't that difficult after all. If you can't play it that fast, just reduce the speed of the whole part, and it will still sound ok. I feel the more difficult part comes in the fast notes in the slow part. If you can't do those 2-3 notes in the desired speed, the music sound flat.
I think technical ability and music expression are interwoven. Things simple like "yao zhi". Be able to "shake" in one volume one speed is one thing; be able to "shake" from soft to loud back to soft, and be able to shake loosely or intensively as the need of music is another story. This is definetely technical ability that don't come over night. It takes hours of boring drill practice every day in order to be able to do so. After you obtain the ability and apply into the music, then it turns to "music expression".
Wang Zhongshan once said in a lecture: "Only without any technical obstacles, you can enjoy the total freedom of expressing your music."
I take this statement very true. When ever I feel good musically expressed piece, I think how many years of technical ability I'm behind to not be able to do so. I don't think I have less musical expression than the player, but my ability is blocking me.
By the way, I don't think Chinese tends to like faster pieces. That might be true for amateur players who just want to attract audience attention, but certainly not in professional level. Technical ability is just the pre-requisity for entering into the music conservatories. Their education is more on how to interprete music pieces. I don't think students learn any more technical skills in the conservatories.
Oh, Bryan and Vi An, I don't think you two are talking about the same bpm. Bryan is talking about 1/16 note in 150 bpm, while Vi An's 380 bpm shouldn't be 1/16 note. I would take it more as quarter notes or 1/8 notes?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 25, 2005 18:39:53 GMT
Are you calling me unitiated??? No. It's just a generalisation. Actually, it is more on the lines of what Carol-san said.
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Post by Vi An on Sept 25, 2005 20:45:36 GMT
Yes correctCarol,
Electronic music is configured differently in bpm beats per minute.
Thanks for clarifying,
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 26, 2005 4:27:53 GMT
I am afraid that by coming to the defense of slow tunes, I have errored by dissing fast music and those that enjoy it. Of course, there is plenty of room in good music for fast exhuberant tunes, and other sentiments as well. I know plenty of masters who can play fast, and play expressively at the same time.
A good program will include a variety of music. You don't want all slow any more than all fast. Consistently loud music isn't really loud since there isn't a soft to compare it to. Consistently fast music just becomes overwhelming and tiresome eventually, at least if being fast is all there is.
I have certainly been bored by slow music. Sometimes I was not listening carefully enough or was just not familiar enough with the style. Sometimes the performer was bored and did not care to put expression in the music. That is deadly boring for all concerned. The point is that slow music takes a lot of artistry to pull off, and it can make extra demands on an audience. But what a payoff!
Best wishes,
David
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Post by sleepy on Nov 18, 2005 2:44:46 GMT
Back to the subject. Apart from slow practice I would also look into the fingering method that Zhao Manqin professes. I'm not sure what to call it in English, this method was was developed for optimal plucking, with reference to piano fingering techniques (and to some extand, harp techniques).
Traditional fingering sequence tends to make speeding harder because of the scope of finger movements involved--it quickly lets your hand get tired and tensed. Zhao's method minimizes finger movements, which in turns saves time while you pluck and as result allows you to speed up.
Take an example: to play the notes 656i (la-so-la-do', from "Liuyang River") with traditional method you would normally use index finger-thumb-index finger-thumb, and it requires the whole hand to move forward and then backward as you play. With Zhao's method you could do index-middle-index-thumb, but the hand doesn't need to move back and forth.
In short, the key to speed is to minimize the scope of hand & finger movements, and keep you fingers as close to the strings as poosible without actually resting on the strings. Contrary to what carol has suggested I wouldn't hold any part of the finger tight at anytime but keep your fingers in a naturally relaxed, and ready to pluck state.
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Post by gili on Nov 18, 2005 4:21:58 GMT
Sleepy made a very good post. Professor Zhao Manqin made a breakthrough in contemporary guzheng music by carefully studying the natural dexterity of our fingers. His Red Sun above Jinjiang Mountain is a well-known example. His technique fosters speed. It is very useful on many contemporary pieces, but traditional fingering like the index-thumb-index-thumb may still be used for some slower parts to emphasize a different tone since each of our fingers produce a different tone despite plucking the same note. I wouldn't hold any part of the finger tight either, but the fingers need to be strong. According to Xiang Sihua, if your finger or hand stays stiff in position, then it's not relaxed or natural.
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Post by carol on Nov 18, 2005 16:18:39 GMT
From my observation, Yuan Sha's and Ji Wei's hands look very tight especially during fast part. Wang Zhongshan's and Fan Ran's hands look more relaxing.
Zhao Manqin made a very detail description in his "Fast Fingering" book on all the musicles and bones in playing position. My understanding is that doing "fast fingering" is very different from traditional plcuking. You have to keep your fingers in tension (zhang li) position during the fast part, and don't go back to the resting postion as you would do with single plucking. Because time will be wasted from resting postion to tension postion. You only go back to the resting position after a fast phrase is over.
My teacher happens to be a piano majored, so she taught me to keep the hand firm and tight (in tension) during the fast part. I found that really helpful.
Any way, I think the guzheng playing today is very different from the traditional way. I guess most of you have seen that a player now will raise her hand up high after plucking and then go down to make another pluck.(Yuan Sha is a good example.) I don't see this with older players. When the first time I saw that, I thought that was very weired and exaggerating. I thought that's excess body movement, and didn't like that. However, then I was taught by Prof. Li Meng that the raising hand movement is actually to help the player to relax after one pluck, so the hand doesn't stay tight all the time. So, they teach kids this way: pluck and raise your hand, pluck and raise your hand.
So, I figure that also means when plucking your hand is tight and in tension.
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 18, 2005 17:39:53 GMT
I can't make any comments on traditional or contemporary guzheng technique, but I know that commonly accepted techniques for western instruments such as piano, flute and violin avoid unnecessary tension anywhere in the body. In the 1980's I was a piano major and all of my teachers encouraged me to use only the muscles required and never to lock up. I have also seriously studied flute and strings, and all of my teachers have recommended avoiding tension.
Tension is now recognised to contribute to performance-related injuries among musicians, such as carpal-tunnel syndrome. There are a number of treatments such as Alexander Technique, Feldenkreis, and Body Mapping that many western musicians use to reduce tension and learn to use the body in a healthy way. Playing a musical instrument often requires us to move in awkward ways. It is very important to learn how our bodies work the best so that we can avoid injury.
In discussions such as this I often wonder if we actually agree but are caught up in a misunderstanding about word meanings. For me tension is something to be avoided anywhere in my body, but this does not mean that I want everything to be flabby or flaccid. There does need to be a certain appropriate firmness in my hands and fingers when I am playing piano, dan tranh, flute or erhu. To someone who has played a long time, the feeling is a supple firmness rather than tenseness. I think though when you tell a beginner to tense up, they are likely to misunderstand and do the wrong thing.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by Vi An on Nov 18, 2005 18:02:37 GMT
I have always noticed that I naturally lift my hands off the strings during sustained moments in the music or for breaks in a phrase. My fingers stay relatively close to the strings at all times in order to sequence in the next set of notes more accurately. I notice in Yuan Sha's performances that her hands often lift way way too high and there fore she misses a lot of the crutial time needed to hit the next sequence of notes. For more gentle pieces her versions are way too slow for my taste. She has a lack of "flow" in her more gentle pieces than I'm used to hearing.
In terms of tension, I find that playing the koto requires a much higher degree of tention, I should say "flexing" or stiffening of the finger joints and muscles.. Guzheng teaches the stablization of the wrist and arms at a comfortable potition where most of the work is in the fingers so there is little chance of injury playing guzheng. Rule of thumb, you must pace yourself at all times with any instrument, you can't JUMP into a fast speed pace right away, you must work yourself into the speed and work your way up to the desired speed.
Lastly, I recall watching a documentary on a virtuoso pianist where he mentioned a lot about lifting of his hands that it gives him an idea of how long to let the note last. He also pointed out that he can feel the vibrations rising from the piano keys onto his hands.
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 18, 2005 19:06:50 GMT
For more gentle pieces her versions are way too slow for my taste. She has a lack of "flow" in her more gentle pieces than I'm used to hearing. I think that one measure of the skill of a musician is how slow they are able to play and still make engaging music. It is often a lot easier to play at a moderate tempo. When you slow it down a lot, it is particularly necessary to pay attention to phrasing, dynamics, rhythmic precision, tone color and other aspects of good musicianship. These are all important at any tempo of course, but the lack of musicianship is especially obvious at a slow tempo. A slow tempo does not always mean all the notes are slow. Often times ornamentation will require a high level of skill and supple technique to execute effectively. Good ornamentation can be fast but also must be done to enhance the music rather than disrupt it. Best wishes, David
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