So Much Trouble...

[Probo X]

Hey there, my girlfriend got me the instrument of my dreams for Christmas the Erhu. Though I can't seem to get any sort of tune out of it. For the past couple of days I've been searching on the net for info about how to set it up, how to tune it (I haven't found yet.. should it be really tight or loose?) and the correct posture to use when bowing. Unfortunately all the sound I get out of it is the rubbing noise of the bow hair. I've recorded it, here is the link;

www.pink-yomi.com/Probo%20X/Erhu/My%20Erhu.wav
I think it's about 500k so bare with it. (Right click save as)

Here is a picture of it.

www.pink-yomi.com/Probo%20X/Erhu/My%20Erhu.JPG

I haven't got any fabric underneath the bridge, is it really nessessary for it to be placed there to get any sound?

Please let me know if you any ideas about it. I just hope that there isn't anything majorly wrong with it.
Thank you!

[davidmdahl]

Welcome to our forum probo! I hope that you find help and fun here.

I suspect that you do not have any rosin on your bow hairs. If none came with your erhu, you can purchase rosin at music stores that sell violins, or via quite a few sources on the Internet. I use Pirastro Obligato violin rosin, but other violin rosins are okay as well. Don't use rosin for cello.

The erhu is generally tuned to the D just above middle C on the piano (inside string) and A (a fifth above) on the outside string.

The photo at the following link may help to show the proper method for holding the erhu:

www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/nyc/ChineseErhu.php

The following website has some excellent information on the erhu. Don't miss the video!

www.jiebingchen.com/

Yes, you really need the pad under the strings below the bridge, but some other things will need to be right before that will rise to the top of concerns. Please keep asking questions, and we will do our best to help.

Best wishes,

David

[Probo X]

Thank you David, I didn't expect such a quick reply!

What is the best way to tune an Erhu? I've downloaded the AP tuner from a link from here. Once it was up and running I placed the microphone at the back of the Erhu facing the white part of the snakeskin and pluck the individual strings, is this the correct way to tune?

This is obviously my very first instrument and hopefully my last! This is the only instrument that gives me goosebumps when I hear it, besides a Cello.

I hope you don't mind me asking a heap of questions 'cause it's something I really do want to get right at the very beggining.

[davidmdahl]

Hello Probo,

I do not recommend trying to tune an erhu by plucking the strings. Once your bow hair is rosined up and you can get a sustained tone, you can tune to a tone from tuner or a piano. It is possible to tune from a display, but it is a good idea to get used to tuning with your ears, by matching another pitch. It should be possible to turn up the gain on the microphone input so you don't need to have the mic in the body of the erhu.

If at all possible, I recommend that you find an erhu teacher to help you. If this is not possible, an open-minded violin or fiddle teacher/player might be very helpful. The bow and violin are held very differently, but armed with good photos and videos of an erhu played properly, the violin teacher could save you a lot of trouble.

Best wishes,

David

[paulv]

Probo,

I tried an enlargement of your erhu pix to see if there was a bridge there because I've gotten sound out of an erhu with no rosin on the bow. The larger pix didn't appear to have a bridge that I could see -- is there a bridge there? Your sound clip sounds like there's no bridge -- the erhu could also be not tuned.

AP Tuner is pretty good and it's the fastest responding tuner I've found so far. I also use it while playing to make sure I'm hitting the right notes. If you need a metronome, check out www.earpower.com

Also, the white string wrapped (the nut) around the metal strings will probably need to be adjusted -- with your elbow on top of the resonator box, the white string should be approx at the same location as your little finger joint (at the hand) -- don't twist the string nut -- just move up/down.

There's a lot of good info on this forum for erhu, so check out some of the other erhu threads. The forum is pretty much dominated by guqin/guzheng and erhu people. Like David said, post your questions.

Regards,
Paul

[calden]

Probo:

Welcome to the forum. You have definitely found the right place to ask your questions. The erhu is a tricky little bugger, but most of us have managed to squeeze some nice sounds out of it after whacking away at the thing for a year or two. There is an initial steep learning curve, but it gets easier.

In addition to the excellent advice offered Grand-Master-Flash David and Most-Excellent-Humbleness Paul, I scoured the internet trying to find a good, clear picture of where the bridge is supposed to be. Here's one I took for demo purposes: -

carlos-alden.magix.net/

go here and click on the "erhu1" picture in the "Chinese Music" folder. You'll see that the erhu bridge holds the strings up off the head maybe 1/4". If you don't have a bridge on the thing, look around in the case. It's so small that it appears sometimes like a little chip of wood that accidentally got there. It should be pretty much in the center of the head. The felt/foam rubber pad is gently jammed up underneath the strings BEHIND the bridge - this helps prevent overtones and weird harmonnics that come from this short section of string resonating. It also softens the sound, especially when it's right up against the rear of the bridge.

Good luck. Let us know when you've got some of this sorted out and we'll give you lesson #2. We've all been there.

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

Yeesh, don't let this Grand Master Poobah stuff my friend Carlos is spouting about me confuse you, Probo. Carlos is the experienced one on the erhu and plays really well. I only started with erhu lessons last February, so the sounds coming from my erhu still sound like a small animal in pain. I have been where you are at not long ago. The good news is that the erhu is a lot of fun to play and practice, even when loved ones and pets are on the run.

Best wishes,

David

[paulv]

Probo,
I agree with David -- of all the erhu players who frequently post to this forum, Carlos is the most experienced. Hopefully, between the three of us, we can answer (or get answers from our respective teachers) any questions you may have.

By the way, I have some fingering charts if you want them -- either in individual image files or in Microsoft Word.

Regards,
Paul...

[calden]

probo:

I'd also like to second David's suggestion of finding a teacher.

I see you live in Australia. If you're anywhere near a major city there must be a sizable Chinese population, correct? (Never been there - my assumptions are based are meager knowledge gleaned from Lonely Planet travelogues watched on public television here in the States.) Sitting down with someone who can show you the basics is really important and will save you hours of fumbling around. Even if you need to drive several hours for a couple of lessons it will be a big help. A teacher can also recommend some books and music.

Carlos

[paulv]

I'll second David's and Carlos' suggestion -- I'm glad I have a teacher as noticed that I could have developed many bad habits. Developing bad habits on a musical instrument is the last thing a person would want to do.

Regards,
Paul....

[Probo X]

Happy new year to everyone here! And thanks for everyone who replied.

I bought the rosin, unfortunately they only had the Pirastro Obligato rosin so I had bought Kaplan art craft rosin, dark no. 7 which they said was the next best thing. The bow is now rosined, though I might have to go over it agian 'cause the ends make really scratchy noises.

Now it's all tuned up, using the AP tuner. The Qianjing string is nicely tied. The only thing I'm missing is the fabric under the bridge. (Paulv - Yep there is a bridge there the pics are really dark I'll have to take new ones.)

David - Hehe, I didn't see any stray cats outside the window while I was attempting to play! But yeah it made my sister run out of the room so it's already paying off!

Calden - Uhuh I live an hour away from the capital city where I am. I've emailed some of the universities (Or for the US guys, colleges) and just waiting on a reply. If that fails I'll put an ad in the newspaper seeing if there are any teachers locally, otherwise it looks like I'll be travelling.

I've put my Erhu away for now so I don't create some bad habits, until I find a teacher otherwise it's always a treat to take it out of it's case and hold it.

Take care everyone!

I just wish Jiebing Chen lived near by it would be awesome to be taught by her.

[Probo X]

Here's a couple of new pics.

This pic is really blurry but you can see the bridge

www.pink-yomi.com/Probo%20X/Erhu/Blurry.jpg


This is my Erhu in it's case. Sometimes I have a little difficulty placing the bow in.

www.pink-yomi.com/Probo%20X/Erhu/Erhu%20And%20Case.JPG

[davidmdahl]

Hello Probo,

Good work with the rosin. It is important to get enough rosin along the full length of the bow hairs, both inside and outside. A violinist only needs to rosin the outside, but we need to rosin both sides to play the inside and outside strings. Too much rosin will make a mess, but knowing how much is a matter for experience.

I found my erhu teacher by contacting a Chinese cultural organization in town. Email might not do it, so you might Google around and try to find some phone numbers. I have had limited success by emailing people. Email addresses have a way of changing or becoming abandoned. Strange as it might seem, some traditional types have not yet become comfortable with high technology. <g>

If you can't find an erhu teacher right off, look for any player or teacher of traditional instruments, such as guzheng or dizi (zither or flute). Once you find the door to the Chinese music community in Australia, you may find a lot of resources.

Good luck.

Best wishes,

David

[sanmenxia]

Hi Probo,
That's a really nice erhu! Could you tell us a bit more about it? I agree about finding a teacher, you need to start off with the right techniques. My first teacher was an OK player, but wasn't good at teaching, so finding a good teacher is important as well.

[Probo X]

Thanks for the compliment. I'll tell you what I know about it, mainly from the site where I got it from.

- Brand : Dun Huang
- Model : Preferred student Erhu
- Wood : Mahogany
- Top Finish : Made of ivory (Elephant tusk)
- Outfittings : Strings, bridge and bow
It came with two bridges, one that's a
full circle, the other half a circle.
- Made in Shanghai

My girlfriend also got me the case extra,

- Erhu hard case
- Fabric: Limitated leather
- Lining: Velvet, red color
- Carrying strap
- High protection
- Lockable

Yeah I won't be able to find a teacher until after the holidays. So it's just good for display at the moment.
Otherwise I hold it while I listen to some Erhu soundtracks. Hehe.

[paulv]

Hey Probo X,
I have a couple of ripped CDs (ripped into mp3 files) on my computer I could send you if you want -- send me a PM with a good email address.

Regards,
Paul....

[YouLanFengChune]

For a student's erhu, your girlfriend has gotten you a resonable one, though we don'tlikemahagony here.

my girlfriend plays erhu, (i play dizi) and she teaches erhu to schools and several orchestras. Mind you, her investments (paid for by me) usually burns a HUGE hole in my pockets.

Her latest wish list, a Fang Ming Li eight sided flattened Gaohu of Violet Sandalwood. She needs it to play Butterfly lovers for a concerto soon. Thats really expensive..ARGH!!

[Probo X]

What's wrong with the mahogany type?

[paulv]

probo said:

What's wrong with the mahogany type?

That's a good question considering that mahogany is a very dense wood and suitable for various instruments. I'm not an expert so I can't comment.

Regards,
Paul...

[calden]

probo said:

What's wrong with the mahogany type?

Mahogany is a very stable wood with consistent density, which makes it very good for guitar necks, for example. However it's not that heavy compared to ebony, rosewood, or other denser woods. In my experience the better erhus I have played have had some heft to them. David's Cadenza erhu is like that - it is almost glued to your lap and to my hands that makes it easier to play. It simply feels more stable and less wiggly.

So it may be the weight factor. It also may be that mahogany is easier to obtain, and traditionally rarer woods have been used in more expensive instruments simply because they're rarer and more "precious," having nothing to do with making it "better."

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

I agree with Carlos that a heavier erhu is easier to play. Some erhus with lighter wood have metal in the base to provide this weight. I think it likely that the best skins are reserved for instruments with more costly wood. Probably to a certain point, an adequate skin and wood is just fine. For experienced players who wish particular qualities in the sound, a specific wood and quality of snake skin can be specified.

In my experience, a lot of the sound quality of the erhu depends on the strings, bridge, and proper adjustment of qianjin and the other parts. If the skin is not too thin or too thick, it will probably be fine. I don't think that the wood matters until everything else is optimal.

This is the $.02 from an erhu player of just less than a year of experience, so take with salt as you think best.

Best wishes,

David

[YouLanFengChune]

From my experience, wood quality is determined by chemical composition (timbre), porosity (resonance level) and density (dynamics and weight)

skin is usually better if thicker (if any south american out there has anacondas or pythyon exceeding 10 metres, forget it, i can't make the erhu from bull hide). American reticulated python is good, but it needs a few extra yanks due to its stretcgability. I use lots of reticualted ones.

Burmese python is the usual favourite, though prada is killing out more stocks than erhu, san xian and other instrument makers combined. 1 6-metre one costs 1200USD, and can only at best yield 3 pieces for top class sandalwood erhu. Thats the reason for customization.


Just to share guys, I have begun making erhu in my music centre, and the professional orchestra in my country had begun to accept and like what we have done. Plus, its being sold back to China!!!! Fancy selling ice to eskimos.... We believe that its great fun to make instruments, and we should All try. Never the less, making erhu demands a lot of "finger power" the tension on skin downwards exceeds 200 pounds, and all of it using hand power, and maybe simple gear principles.

[paulv]

I agree with David's comments as my teacher has told me several times that a good sounding erhu is dependent on all the components being of top quality matched with a good player.

I've also heard the argument from violin players that the three attributes that YinHao mentions are important and that violins that are made from woods that date back to the 1600's can never be repeated (I guess this also applies to the varnishes).

This is my $0.04 worth (using David's math that 1 yr of erhu = $0.02).

Regards
Paul...