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Post by phoenixiao on Oct 12, 2018 17:30:18 GMT
I've been practising and learning Xiao for a year and am quite contented with the Dong Xuehua bamboo F Xiao (costs USD 130). Now I feel more confident to venture and explore Master Winson's flutes (https://www.facebook.com/groups/liaoson/) so I can further enjoy the learning journey - basically it won't end up being a white elephant.
Does anyone use his flute here as I hope to gather some information and opinions before formally asking him.
1) For budgeting purpose, I hope to have a rough sense of the price range.
I understand his pieces are highly prized so if it's more convenient do message me privately. For example, what is the range and difference for the different materials (wood vs. bamboo), and embouchres (Winson's proprietary "relaxed" embouchre, U, V, and Tang).
2) I'm considering which kind of Xiao to add/extend my range.
My current one is a Northern bamboo Xiao (北箫) or otherwise called a qinxiao (琴箫) with U embouchre. Love the timbre, but am finding the volume can be lacking. I've to deliberate between his selection of:
(a) Southern Xiao (南箫) or Northern Xiao
(b) bamboo or wood
(c) U embouchre or "relaxed" embouchre
I would like to play more Zen style pieces for a small audience unplugged so it seems the "relaxed" embouchre might be the better option. I'm not keen on the breathy sound of Tang embouchre at this juncture. I guess wood is just more durable but am uncertain if it's more challenging to play compared to bamboo. And then, the next question is which kind of bamboo or wood. My current one is purple bamboo (紫竹) as the flute came from China.
3) I'm assuming he does ship his flutes worldwide?
Ideally would like to visit his space and try the pieces personally but am currently "grounded" due to family commitments.
Would love to hear from the experiences of players here 😊
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Post by meoweth on Oct 26, 2018 23:23:54 GMT
They're definitely the best instruments. But you cant go wrong with the cheapest possible xiao that winson makes. I dont know what it is currently, but its likely made from either wood or a bamboo composite material. He ships worldwide. The Tang embrochure is probably the most recommended, but it depends on what style you want.
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Post by phoenixiao on Nov 2, 2018 2:00:24 GMT
Thanks. I'm getting a Tang bamboo F (唐口老桂竹) from Master Liao. Since I'm quite a new learner and not "stuck" on U embouchre yet, it'll be easier for me to switch and adapt to both.
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Post by phoenixiao on Nov 2, 2018 16:00:42 GMT
Thanks. I'm getting a Tang bamboo F (唐口老桂竹) from Master Liao. Since I'm quite a new learner and not "stuck" on U embouchre yet, it'll be easier for me to switch and adapt to both. And wow, he is swift in response and action, or maybe I got him at the right time. The Xiao is already on its way so maybe Santa's visiting early for me  |
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Post by phoenixiao on Nov 6, 2018 14:04:25 GMT
The Xiao arrived yesterday, and it's an amazing piece of instrument that looks daunting but can sing in whispers. Will have to practice with beginner's mind and establish a new foundation in Tang embouchre.  唐口老桂竹F调箫The flute is 63cm in length with bore diameter 2.3cm and 0.8cm thick walls. A huge contrast with northern Xiao (北箫). In earlier years he used to name the flutes with engravings. Here's Master Liao doing a demo on 卧云(Crouching Cloud): Demo of Xiao |
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Post by ambientflute on Nov 7, 2018 8:59:18 GMT
Looks lovely! I really like the engravings (not keen on them usually, but somehow it seems to fit on this one). Looks like you have a flute for life!
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Post by phoenixiao on Apr 10, 2019 17:24:19 GMT
I've taken on another Xiao after enjoying the Tang Xiao in F key from Winson (文松). The Tang Xiao continues to let me grow as there are layers of hurdles to overcome: self awareness of tension in lips, face, throat, fingers, and breath. Each time I think I've "got it", I find there's more to work on. Given the wide bore and wide blowing edge, the initial challenges involved finding the correct angle of blowing and the best lip shape, which is supposed to be naturally flattened. Maintaining correct pitch was a problem as I tended to drop lower but blowing too high over the edge meant a loss of volume. Over the last 5 months it was a bit of roller coaster, and only recently I discovered my blind-spot and can now manage to get the multi-harmonics (多谐声波) and resonance (共鸣). It's definitely a worthwhile journey as the power and versatility of the Tang Xiao adds a certain flavour to pieces. As I revisit simple pieces, the Tang Xiao enables me to play it differently with a richer texture, and this excites me with the possibilities. The only Northern Xiao (北洞箫) in G that I liked became the ABS plastic Ren Xiao as it did well in letting me reach 3rd octave. I had to use G key as my class does ensemble pieces where the F would clash. But my teacher found the Ren Xiao too soft and lacking in tone colour so off I went to get a good Northern Xiao  This time I requested it to be made as Winson did not have ready stock on hand. It's a purple bamboo (紫竹) open top. Against my teacher's advice, I opted for open top so there can be versatility in pitch. His view is that closed top is easier and more comfortable but after growing to like the Tang Xiao, I was ready to try an open top U embouchure.  Above on the right is the Northern Xiao with an inner diameter of 1.9cm and outer diameter of 2.5cm. Initially it looked like a slimmer Qin Xiao (琴箫) but once placed side by side with my other Xiao it's actually of similar width. Below, a comparison of embouchure shapes and sizes. The new G Xiao (far right) was very light weight compared to the F key Dongxuehua (董雪华) (2nd from left). The blowing edge is distinct as it almost looks paper thin at its top, and the internal cut goes further down the body in a long slope.  Here's a length comparison. The new Xiao is at the bottom.   Above, the sound holes and their different placements (new Xiao first from left). The Tang Xiao (far right) has no sound holes. Another distinction is the new Xiao has no bindings, which is why it came with a coat of plant based oil to prevent cracking. In Singapore's high humidity it was not needed. Winson explained that bindings would limit the range of the Xiao (闷) so he keeps it bare. The tail end is also unusual because the inner diameter tapers down to 1.4cm.  r My first reaction on seeing the Xiao was a little underwhelming: it's light, looks flimsy, and very "simplistic". But blowing it brought out its true worth. I could get volume and resonance that surpassed the other pieces of Northern Xiao. High notes were smooth and sweet. I summarise it as easy to handle and cheerful (顺手，开朗). Some people wonder if his instruments are good because he plays well. From my experience so far, it's a little of both: his instruments have the capacity to be pushed but not many can maximise it due to lack of skill and experience. I don't have a recording so here's sharing Winson's sound test. Enjoy. |
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Post by meoweth on Apr 10, 2019 19:00:01 GMT
Starting to get quite a collection there. How much did you pay for the Winson tang?
The difficulty of the Winson flutes are very high, but if you learn the right technique its alot easier.
According to Winson, theres hardly any teachers that will have the correct technique, even for northern xiao.
His technique is completely different, full puffy cheeks, sliding embrochure, very advanced and unique stuff.
You might think he's making it up, but hes the teacher and flute maker of Chen Yue starting a couple years ago.
If you're serious about learning, try to make your way up to Taipei, he speaks good enough english and is a master at teaching his technique.
Prepare to spend a couple weeks in Taipei while you get your lessons. Its an excellent city.
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Post by phoenixiao on Apr 11, 2019 3:00:41 GMT
I'd love to fly over and learn from him but family commitment will keep me grounded for some time. Taiwan happens to be one of my favourite destinations and Mandarin is not a problem since I'm a native speaker. Wish some organisation would invite him over to Singapore to teach.
His Youtube teaching videos, articles, and forum discussions, have been my main guide so far. In fact the puffed cheeks and sideways/diagonal embouchure are achievable and he gave detailed steps. I suspect most people give up because the learning steps seem too simple and we all like to get there quickly. Here's a summary of what I picked up from his teaching (not comprehensive):
1) Practise stable long breath for note playing in a relaxed state. The word "relaxed" needs time to figure out - it's about appropriate effort and firmness without slacking off. This is similar to mindfulness meditation - the more we practise the easier it is to enter a stable state without struggling with the details. Do not rush into mimicking the external form to get the sounds.
2) Use a mirror/video recorder to support proprioception, creating an inner "image" of correct lip shape, angle, etc.
3) Practise in a space that provides natural reverberation. In ancient times, teachers would ask students to play into a large urn to hear themselves. The reverb "returns" some lost frequencies to the player and helps refine playing technique. Additionally its also more enjoyable, just like how people enjoy bathroom singing.
4) Use a spectrometer (many free apps available) to aid in getting the right pitch. At some point, also learn not to depend on it.
5) Other than visual, also sense the vibrations via touch at the finger tips, which helps in the feedback cycle.
6) Once each note is stable, say on the first octave, one can move on to attempt either of the two techniques to achieve resonance and multi-harmonics.
He advocates using the inner lips surface to guide the air rather than a pursed lips approach (often U Xiao players form such a habit), reason being the inner surface is much longer and more stable, thus better able to direct the flow.
To clarify, the sideways/diagonal embouchure is mostly applicable to externally cut blowing edges, i.e., Tang/shakuhachi or Winson's Song blowing edge (松口). By moving the jaw sideways it flattens the lip shape which is more effective at striking the blow edge. This enables resonance (共鸣) with less breath effort.
For the puffed cheeks approach, this works with any embouchure. On the Tang Xiao it's more pronounced due to its wider blowing edge. The puffiness enables air to circulate around in the mouth and thus on expelling there are different velocities of air hitting the blow edge (缓中带急). And as we know the speed of air affects pitch, so with different speeds a wider range of frequencies are "activated" in the Xiao and thus multi-harmonics (多重声波) is achieved. I find that this puffed cheeks technique is also mentioned in other material for circular breathing as it helps keep a reservoir of air in the mouth, so it's not an entirely new innovation.
The difficulty with both techniques is that it tends to shift our lips if we lack stable control, which explains the emphasis on foundation of long breath training.
His basic Xiao are in the range of 1000 USD. I'll probably release my other G Xiao to fully focus on one.
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Post by meoweth on Apr 11, 2019 21:01:04 GMT
Ok, now that we are in discussion of techniques, let me tell you what he has told me about the sliding jaw.
Step 1: Pick a side for 'Big sound'. You may already know this, huge sound is achieved by puff jaw, relaxed lips, etc..
Step 2: The other side is 'tiny sound'. Play a second octave note and try to make it as quiet as possible. You will find that you could play a note for almost a minute (without breathing) because the airflow is so tiny, yet the sound is still there. Try to find the point of minimal sound. Instead of just modulating your breath and lip shape, slide your jaw more to the tiny sound side. Picture a sideways triangle, and now picture going from the middle to the tiny side. The embroschure will shrink as you slide your jaw. Its not a big movement though.
Step 3: Transition between each in the most smooth way possible. So go from max puff jaw on one side, and goto the other polar opposite. The key is in the smoothness of transition. You can practice by even going from a low note on the loud side, to the second octave of that note on the small side. If done properly, that's the real defining characteristic of Winsons' style.
He calls this triangular jaw movement, it may be reasonably possible to do this in practice, but to do it without going off-tune, and within a song's tempo is incredibly hard.
Personally, I've given up all xiaos at the moment, and am focusing on simpler 6-hole irish bamboo flutes even though I have dozens of winson xiaos. I find that because Ive only been playing 6-7 years of flute total, that I need more work on fundamentals such as tempo and just playing basic songs to accompaniment better. After some more time, I will go back to the xiaos. The difference is like going from 2 dimensions to 3 dimensions.
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Post by dizixiao on Apr 30, 2019 16:53:48 GMT
Ok, now that we are in discussion of techniques, let me tell you what he has told me about the sliding jaw. Step 1: Pick a side for 'Big sound'. You may already know this, huge sound is achieved by puff jaw, relaxed lips, etc.. Step 2: The other side is 'tiny sound'. Play a second octave note and try to make it as quiet as possible. You will find that you could play a note for almost a minute (without breathing) because the airflow is so tiny, yet the sound is still there. Try to find the point of minimal sound. Instead of just modulating your breath and lip shape, slide your jaw more to the tiny sound side. Picture a sideways triangle, and now picture going from the middle to the tiny side. The embroschure will shrink as you slide your jaw. Its not a big movement though. Step 3: Transition between each in the most smooth way possible. So go from max puff jaw on one side, and goto the other polar opposite. The key is in the smoothness of transition. You can practice by even going from a low note on the loud side, to the second octave of that note on the small side. If done properly, that's the real defining characteristic of Winsons' style. He calls this triangular jaw movement, it may be reasonably possible to do this in practice, but to do it without going off-tune, and within a song's tempo is incredibly hard. Personally, I've given up all xiaos at the moment, and am focusing on simpler 6-hole irish bamboo flutes even though I have dozens of winson xiaos. I find that because Ive only been playing 6-7 years of flute total, that I need more work on fundamentals such as tempo and just playing basic songs to accompaniment better. After some more time, I will go back to the xiaos. The difference is like going from 2 dimensions to 3 dimensions. You can play the xiao without using Winson technique. Instead of sliding the jaw you can slide the xiao with your hand. You can also blow thin air without using his technique. I see many pro play for a minute without using puff cheek. I think it just his style. You can achieve the same result with different style. The thing I get from his teaching is to blow second octave/second harmonic without blowing so hard that you get tire easy. Basically blow a fast thin stream of air. If 2-3 years from now and you decide to sell some of your Winson tang xiao please let me know. I might be able to buy one. I want to own one or at least try one for a few months. I wish someone can let me borrow or rent one for a few months. |
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hengdi
Novice
I, as the wind, blow without aim
Posts: 6
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Post by hengdi on Jun 17, 2019 20:03:26 GMT
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Post by phoenixiao on Jun 18, 2019 14:59:45 GMT
I follow his teaching videos closely. The latest one was really timely and helpful. Somehow in my teacher’s class the art of playing classical Xiao is somewhat lost and blended with dizi techniques. Perhaps it’s too much to expect in a group class where all other students are on dizi and the focus is on orchestral arrangements. Still hoping a teacher will “appear” when student is ready |
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