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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 6, 2005 10:04:08 GMT
haizz diversity, thats a beauty of chinese music.
If you're into erhu concertoes, siolos and very souldful pieces, somehow, they would prefer shanghai bows.
If you're into Orchestra music, requiring more precision, or if you play gaohu (higher by a fifth), you would want it flattened out. Regarding frog styles, you can also show me a picture of your frog. I would think 95% of players use plastic frogs now. For bows, determining factor is the bamboo and whatever else doesn't matter so much.
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Post by calden on Feb 7, 2005 0:53:15 GMT
To Ship a bow, it costs under $10. I have ppl who would make bows for you, and you have a choice of how thick you wanna it to get, 88 hairs, 65 hairs etctec however, you need to see, whether you like beijing style,(flattened out) ort shanghai style (in a roll) Hey YouLanFeng: I didn't realize there was a difference in bow hair and style (rolled vs. flattened). Can you point to a website with some pictures of these differences? Thanks in advance, Carlos
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 7, 2005 1:18:28 GMT
I didn't realize there was a difference in bow hair and style (rolled vs. flattened). Can you point to a website with some pictures of these differences? I don't know of any website pics, but all of my nhi/erhus use what look to me like rolled bow hair. I think that the flat bow hair is typical of bows used for the violin. I am interested in the thread count that is typical. It seems to me that if the hair bundle is too fat, it will be hard to play one string separate from the other. Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon USA
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 7, 2005 4:14:30 GMT
Hmm... After the Chinese New Year, i'll post some pics on cadenza. perhaps i'll get them to sell bows.
Flattened bows, generaly called Beijing bows. They are falttened by means of a piece of plastic or material placed as a guide, and its all wraped up in a layer of polyester-like material.
Rolled up, or shanghai bows are in a bundle and held together using nylon tying methods.
Using a rolled up bow probably requires more effort in "opening up" I'm sure your erhu teacher would tell you to "LA KAI". If your right hand techniques are ok, you will not have trouble with both bows.
I looked at the price of competitors. How about selling bows at about $25 each, or $29 if shipping is free. Bows are accessories, and probably never cost that much anyway.
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Post by paulv on Feb 7, 2005 13:51:37 GMT
Hi All, I cleaned my bow once when I changed rosins. I used some mild dishwashing detergent and let the bow dry overnight -- worked great. I did this because I really like the bamboo bow shaft (very fexible), so I didn't want to totally replace the bow. I've been told that rubbing alchohol works too.
A good point was made though -- the bows are cheap enough to replace if needed.
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 7, 2005 15:42:30 GMT
Hmm.... I think I have the pic. cadenzamusic.biz/huqin.htmThe Hangzhou Premium Erhus all use Beijing Bows The Wang Qi Xing Endorsed Erhus used shanghai bows The pics may not be clear, but worth a look anyway Click on MORE DETAILS, and Click on the pictures for better pics.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 7, 2005 18:40:16 GMT
Thanks Paul, for the tip on washing bow hair. I have three nhi, and have switched bows around so I can use the best bow on the best nhi. I can now try washing the worst bow hair and see if that does any good. If I mess it up, no real harm done. The hair should come off the bow easily. By the way, my bows appear to be wood rather than bamboo. Is this not typical or desireable?
I still might like to order new bows. The ones I have now appear to be roll-style (Shanghai), so I might like to give the flat-style (Beijing) a try. It is currently a challenge for me to move the bow between the strings silently, so maybe a little more clearance will help.
I would find it interesting to know what style of bows the erhu players on this forum use.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon USA
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Post by paulv on Feb 7, 2005 19:50:28 GMT
Hi David, I have three bows all with bamboo shafts -- I've never seen an erhu bow with a wood shaft. I would think that a wood shaft would be too stiff. My favorite bow came with the erhu and it's a real nice flexible bamboo and the grain is somewhat patching. I Chinese friend of mine told me that this bamboo is famous and it only grows at a certain time and it even has a special name which I, of course, forgot. I picked up two extra bows in China (Tianjin) because they were real inexpensive and I really just wanted the horse hair portion (already made up) for replacements.
About two months ago, I did replace the horse hair on my good bow with one of the spares. By the way, all of my bows have flat horse hair and I've never seen, or used a rounded horsehair bow.
By the way, the problem you're having moving the bow between the strings -- this is always a challenge for students like us!
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 7, 2005 21:56:04 GMT
Thank you Paul, for the comments. I will check with my teacher first, but plan to order a few new flat bows, along with some other supplies like strings and bridges. Even with the better bow from my other instrument, playing is a lot easier. Or maybe it is due to my practicing. <g>
Best wishes,
David
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 7, 2005 23:39:20 GMT
Hi!
I think you'll never see hair in roll as in, REALLy rolled up. It will still look somewhat flat when see from afar.
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Post by paulv on Feb 11, 2005 13:40:11 GMT
Hi David, If you're planning to buy bridges, I would suggest that you buy wooden ones as these are much better than bamboo bridges. I always had problems with high "G"s squealing until I replaced the bamboo bridge with a wooden one.
As far as strings go, I know my teacher likes strings from either Beijing or Shanghai -- he says these are the best. I'm too much of a novice to know what are "good" strings.
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 11, 2005 14:08:28 GMT
Ah...
I have never used Bamboo bridges before EXCEPT for Gaohu.
High G squeak , might be what we call a wolf-tone. Can be adjusted till it doesn't exist. Personally, buying brigdes is like buying lottery with a 20% chance of striking.
Well, a good retailer should and would choose a good bridge for you TILL the best possible tone is reached. Doesn't matter what bridge. So long as it sounds good, even pencils can use used. I use pencil for bridge for certain pieces requiring a nasal tone.
Weirdly, Shuzhou/Shanghai Erhu use Beijing bridge (narrow and oval) well, and Beijing Erhus exist well with Shouzhou bridges.. At least thats correct 75% of the time.
Given good workmanship and materials, other than poor skills, mal-adjusted erhus is the TOP cause for bad sounds. Hence, bridge adjusting is more than a skill, its an art and a test of your patience.
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Post by calden on Feb 11, 2005 15:10:36 GMT
Ah... ... Doesn't matter what bridge. So long as it sounds good, even pencils can use used. I use pencil for bridge for certain pieces requiring a nasal tone. ,,, Given good workmanship and materials, other than poor skills, mal-adjusted erhus is the TOP cause for bad sounds. Hence, bridge adjusting is more than a skill, its an art and a test of your patience. My Chinese friend I play music with is an engineer and has done a lot of tinkering with his erhu. He uses a plastic pen barrel, cut to width, for a bridge. It looks like a little empty cylinder supporting the strings. It produces a very loud and nasal tone, which sounds a bit much except when played in an ensemble, then it oddly fits in with other instruments. I told him I'll keep sticking to my stock bridge! A note about tone from the bridge: I fool around with luthiery, and have made a mandolin and done countless adjustments on all my working instruments (guitar, cittern, banjo.) ALMOST NOTHING is more important to tone than the composition of the string contact points material and how it properly connects to the instrument. From having inspected Chinese instruments in general, I suspect that a lot of improvement could be had by tweaking the bridges. For example, the little slots the strings run through are often too wide or worn out from string pressure. I've often wondered about increasing the clarity of tone by putting in a little bone insert on the top of the bridge, or subsituting an ebony bridge for what appears to be rosewood. Know what? After our big Xin Nian Wan Hui party tomorrow I'll do some experimenting and let you know. Carlos
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 11, 2005 15:41:14 GMT
Yeah!
Hi Carlos, pleased you're into these too.
There is the ALL solid Sandalwood bridge (hardly useful).
There is a type, with FENG MU (or softerwod) for base of bridge, and REDWOOD for top of bridge. Rather stable, but considered too expensive here. (about $2 each).
Most bridges (solid rosewod) cost about $1 ++
The white wood tupe costs about 70cents each.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 11, 2005 21:42:18 GMT
Hmmm. I didn't realize that the bridge could be such a major issue. At my first lesson my teacher replaced the bridge with a round button-shaped design. I think it made a difference, but it was subtile. My instrument is in pretty rough shape. however. About the lower third of the snake skin is covered by a wide piece of tape. I don't know if the tape is covering a rip in the skin, or to muffle the sound in some way. This is all to say that the sort of effect one bridge over another might have may depend on what else is wrong. It seems to me that a new set of strings, bridge and bow might do a lot of good. Of course, practicing couldn't hurt either. <g>
I have a 2 VCD set on the erhu from the Dunhuang company. The first CD is a moderately useful tutorial on some aspects of erhu technique. One part I found interesting is how the sound could be varied by moving the pad below the bridge. If the pad was close to the bridge, the sound was more mellow, and more strident if pushed away from the bridge. I wonder if pad material might make a difference.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 11, 2005 23:59:02 GMT
Hi David!
I just spent the third day of Chinese New year fitting up erhu for friends in USA.
That pad below should be made of higher density felt.. folded up properly. When placed closed to the dridges, or even touching the bridge, it sounds more subdued, darker and more solid. (suitable for new erhus)
When pulled away from the bridge, it sounds more hollow and brighter. (suitable for older erhus). All in all, every instrument has its own temper and requirements. Do till oyou see fiit.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 15, 2005 0:32:43 GMT
I am just starting to use my left hand pinky for fingering notes on my nhi/erhu. Apparently my pinky is not quite used to this sort of use. The knuckle collapses easily and independent movement is difficult. Are there any exercises away from the instrument that might be helpful, or is this something that just gets easier with time and practice?
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by paulv on Feb 15, 2005 14:38:05 GMT
Hi David, I don't know of any kind of "independent" finger exercises that you could use. One thing you could try is to move the "qianjin" (I think that's how it's pronounced, anyway,it means 1000 lbs weight), which is the twine that serves as a "nut" for the strings. If you move it closer toward the bridge, the note locations will also be closer. After your pinky gets trained, you can gradually increase the distance back up toward the tuning pegs. I did this when I first started learning the erhu, and now, after six months, the qianjn was up where it should be which is usually measured from the player's elbow resting on the resonator box up to the first joint of the pinky finger. Of course, the time element is dependent on how much someone practices. The downside to this technique is that the notes in the upper fingering positions are so close that they become very difficult to play (e.g., F# and G are less than a finger's width apart). If you do decide to try this, only move the qianjin enough to get your pinky working and consider the width of your fingers.
Also, make sure that the space between the qianjin and the erhu stick neck is the width of your large knuckle on your index finger.
Good luck,
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 15, 2005 21:06:17 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions, Paul. I would prefer not to change the position of the qianjin if at all possible. Even after a few days of practicing with the pinky it is better, so I think that it will eventually come together. I am struggling with too much tension everywhere. On other instruments, I have found some exercises away from the instrument really help.
The pinky problem appears to be common among beginners on violin and guitar, so I might find some exercises from those quarters.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by calden on Feb 15, 2005 21:50:30 GMT
I am just starting to use my left hand pinky for fingering notes on my nhi/erhu. Apparently my pinky is not quite used to this sort of use. The knuckle collapses easily and independent movement is difficult. Are there any exercises away from the instrument that might be helpful, or is this something that just gets easier with time and practice? Thanks. Best wishes, David Dahl Portland, Oregon David: Using my pinky was the last of my worries. I play a 24" scale cittern and trained myself to use my left hand little finger. If you have a guitar try running some slow scales on it very intentionally using your left hand pinky. Also, in playing erhu, one teacher told me to slightly bend my wrist to get the little finger positon, so that the whole hand goes down a little bit when using the pinky. Carlos Hey - going to Folklife this year? There's someone else here in the Seattle area who might be there. We could get together and have a little erhu-fest.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 15, 2005 22:26:58 GMT
Thanks, Carlos. I have a mandolin but not a guitar. I will try some scales on that.
I have tentative plans to attend Folklife. I am not on the schedule to perform this year, so my time will be more flexible for getting together. I hope that it works out.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by paulv on Feb 16, 2005 20:20:27 GMT
Hi David, Being tense all over is not good and my teacher keeps reminding me of that. Glad to hear that your pinky is doing better! I guess the erhu is like any other instrument -- our hands have to get used to doing different things.
Speaking of exercises, I do an exercise with my fingers to practice trills. Holding one finger on a string and trying to trill with the next finger up to a certain count presents some unique challenges! It is helping, though....
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 23, 2005 22:31:47 GMT
Thanks, Paul. Everything is going a lot better on erhu, pinky and all. It is amazing what wonders can come from practicing. I have been really losing track of time when I practice erhu. Last night I was up until almost 2:00 am. I need to keep an eye on the cat. She looks ready to kill me. <g>
I am on the prowl for erhu CDs to use for inspiration. Any recommendations? I greatly prefer solo or accompanyment by only one or a few instruments, rather than orchestral.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by calden on Feb 24, 2005 0:36:49 GMT
[quote author=davidmdahl I am on the prowl for erhu CDs to use for inspiration. Any recommendations? I greatly prefer solo or accompanyment by only one or a few instruments, rather than orchestral.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon [/quote]
I really recommend George Gao. (Georgegao.com) Well recorded and excellent technique.
Carlos
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 24, 2005 0:45:27 GMT
I recommend Min HuiFen. I performed with her twice, and she really astounds. Old, cancer striken, yet, she plays with such fervours, such patroitism (she played Great Wall Capricio) that she still is the best.
Boston symphony described her (years after she battled cancer and won) as "the greatest strings player alive...be it 2 strings or 4).
I can't really describe, listen to her.
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