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Post by zen on Sept 5, 2004 8:14:07 GMT
Naive beginner here, So I got myself an erhu, and an instructional video with english subtitles from ebay. It is helpful, but not very much as it tries to runover *all* the possible methods of playing in a very short time. I've resined the bow several times now, and has tried to emulate how he has held it/ pulled/pushed the bow several times. But to no avail. Technique/experience starting off is lacking here obviously, I was just wondering if anybody has any resources possibly suited for the beginner. Stranded in New Zealand with no Chinatown/mentors does put you in a sticky position... They say the erhu is an emotive instrument, and its true. Mine groans like TinMan from the Wizard of Oz.... how sad and distressing...
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Post by ephrion on Sept 6, 2004 8:13:16 GMT
hmm, it may be a bad erhu. Well, you have to practice with it a lot before you get a good tone. I know mine sounded like a dying fish before I could make itsound somewhat decent
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Post by Paul V on Sept 29, 2004 20:13:54 GMT
Hi Zen, I've been studying Erhu for 8 months now (luckily, with an instructor) and I am not an expert but can suggest a couple of things to try: 1) Erhu adjustments -- although not absolute measurements, you can check that the qingjin (that rope on the top wrapped around the two strings) is located in the right place: put your left elbow (if you're right-handed) on top of the sound box and see if the qingjin is at the same height as where your little finger joins your hand. The qingjin should also be tight enough so there's enough room to pass your index finger's knuckle between the erhu's stick and the strings - no more no less. 2) Bridge -- the bridge should be dead center on the snake skin and you should have a piece of felt (or some other dense fabric material) under the strings (between the strings and skin) below the bridge (this servers to dampen the skin vibration). Bamboo bridges are common and inexpensive but wood bridges are better and cost more. 3) Bow/Rosin -- the bow bamboo should be very flexible and the horse hair should be white. Black horse hair is very coarse and really suited for jinghu. Nylon is all around bad for Erhu. Your rosin should be hard/dry similar to violin rosin (amber in color). The softer rosins are not well suited for erhu (they're good for viola and cellos). You will know if you have too much rosin on the bow by the residual left on the strings while plying. 4) Bowing technique -- if it is not apparent from your video, the bow should be passing almost at right angles to the face of the erhu (almost touching the stick). 5) Miscellaneous 1 -- sometimes my erhu used to slide on my leg depending of what type of clothing I was wearing. I ended up gluing some thin no-skid material to the bottom of the erhu. 6) Miscellaneous 2 -- I use a music tuner on my computer while I'm practicing which helps me with correct finger positions (besides tuning the erhu strings). The one I like, because it has a fast response is called AP Tuner and you can download the shareware at www.cerlsoundgroup.org7) Miscellaneous 3 -- You probably already know this that the erhu is tuned to D4 and A4 (maybe you're an octave lower?) Try some of these and see if they help. Good luck!!
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Post by Carlos Alden on Sept 30, 2004 13:45:18 GMT
Naive beginner: Good for you for pursuing this instrument. I have played for about three years, the last two taken much more seriously. I took several introductory lessons with a very good teacher in Taiwan. I have taken several more lessons with a master player in Seattle, and last February I returned to Taiwan for a business trip and got in five more lessons with the master teacher there. One thing that my Seattle teacher repeatedly tells me to do is put more pressure on the bow, and use the whole length of the bow, from the frog to the tip. He said this is especially important for a beginner. The bow is not dragged lightly across the string. Full pressure contact needs to be on the string from the instant the bow starts sound to the minute it ends the sound. Frankly I found it hard to believe that I needed to put that much pressure on the bow, but my playing has increased in clarity tremendously. I realize you can't easily get to a teacher, but you really need to. This instrument has some techniques that are hard to explain unless you feel them. Good luck. Don't give up - it's such an amazing sound. I have recorded my erhu with my Celtic band as well as play with Chinese friends for celebrations. Go to my website: www.eaglelake1.org/Carlos then follow the link to the Chinese music video. (By the way, although that's acceptable playing for a beginner, I'm much better than that at this point.) Carlos Alden
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Post by asharpe on Sept 30, 2004 20:03:07 GMT
Hi Carlos, Wonderful looking mandolin that you made! And I enjoyed the video, too, but during the one closeup of you in it, you don't look like you were having a lot of fun: very serious. On the other hand, if this was a paid gig, they don't pay you to have fun, eh? Have you recorded any CDs?
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Post by Carlos Alden on Oct 1, 2004 4:48:34 GMT
asharpe: Thanks for the comments. You saw my playing-music face. Doesn't matter if it's erhu, guitar, cittern, banjo - I always look like I'm constipated. The guy who plays uilleann pipes with me is much worse, though, so when we play together I look positively animated by comparison. It wasn't a paid gig. I do erhu for fun, and get paid for Irish music. I have recorded, mostly with my celtic band: www.celticnots.comThere is erhu on our latest CD, "Why Not?" and you can hear it by going to: www.cdbaby.com/cd/celticnots2and clicking on the song sample "Midsummer Night" and fast-forwarding through the crickets and shakuhachi to about 1:30 when the erhu comes in. I've had fun blending erhu with trad Irish music. You can also hear some erhu on the song "Pharoah" from the same CD playlist. Carlos
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Post by Silver on Oct 23, 2004 19:10:34 GMT
sometimes my erhu sounds also like a groaning iron saw. especially on higher tones from the upper string. i've used several time the rosin on the bow strings but it takes only e view times, after some seconds playing the groaning starts again. i think i've got the same erhu like "zed". we've got it from ebay. it is a dunhuang erhu from shanghai. maybe it's really my faked bridge....i hope so...
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Post by yaoyao on Nov 25, 2004 8:25:48 GMT
Hi! I Just join this forum. I also play the er hu, started this year only. Dou you guys take exams?
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 26, 2004 3:47:15 GMT
This morning I picked up my "new" instruments, which included a pair of dan nhi, the Vietnamese versions of the erhu and gaohu. A troup of Vietnamese actors and musicians departed from Portland to go home to Hanoi, and it was easier to sell some of their instruments than to carry them home again. I am not complaining.
Now of course I have the big challenge of making sounds that soothe rather than annoy. Hopefully I will be able to find someone to give me a few lessons. I am sure even a little bit of instruction will make a big difference in avoiding bad habits.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon USA
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 3, 2005 18:48:27 GMT
Last night I had my first erhu lesson. What fun! I used my nhi, the Vietnamese version of the erhu, and it looks like it will be adequate for now. I have long loved the sound of the erhu but was intimidated by the difficulties. Now I am not so intimidated. Not that there are not challenges, but I expect to have fun overcoming them.
One of the things I will have to decide is if and how to upgrade my instrument. What sort of things replaced might improve the sound of the erhu? My teacher replaced the bridge and that had a noticable effect. The skin appears somewhat worn and has a piece of tape covering much of the lower part of the skin, from the bridge on down. Might replacing the skin be worthwhile, or is a better instrument the wise choice.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by paulv on Feb 3, 2005 19:11:05 GMT
Hi David, Congratulations on your first erhu lesson!! It is always an enjoyment to see people wanting to learn the erhu. I love its music and I spend all my spare time practicing.
I don't know what kind of condition your erhu is in, but depending on cost, it may be better to buy a new one. The bridge replacement is important, and I've found that wood bridges tend to have a warmer sound (and cost more than bamboo) with bamboo bridges having a brighter timbre.
You should get the snake skin replaced. I don't know of anyone on the west coast who can do this for you (I don't know anyone on the east coast either!!). I know that python is an endangered species, so you may have problems locating it. When I was in China last year, I saw python squares (8" by 8") at a folk music shop and was tempted to buy a couple but I was concerned about bringing them back into the US.
Another option would be to just keep the erhu you have until you've played a couple of years and then invest in a better quality. I've seen some of the erhus that my fellow students have when we're having an ensemble practice, and most of them are either "student" models or low-end models, and they've been playing for 4-5 years.
Good luck and happy erhu playing -- I'm sure as you progress in your study, you'll enjoy it more -- I certainly did!!
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 3, 2005 19:25:21 GMT
Thanks for the comments, Paul. I have a line on getting the snake skin replaced in China, but don't know the cost yet. I suppose that is the next step. I do have a tendency of buying as good of an instrument as I can afford. It is just so much more fun playing a very well made instrument, and makes practicing more likely to happen. Relative to Western instruments, even a high-end erhu is not that expensive. All the same, I don't want to overdo it.
Are there any safe techniques for making an erhu play more quietly for practicing. My best time to practice is at night when the rest of the household is sleeping.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David Dahl Portland, Oregon
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Post by paulv on Feb 3, 2005 20:14:23 GMT
Hi David, It should be interesting to learn what the skin replacement would cost. I asked about re-hairing my bow and it was 40 yuan ($5 US?). I just bought another bow there which was also 40 yuan and disassembled it and installed the horsehair on my bamboo bow. I had some really small plastic tie wraps which worked great!
I agree with your comment on buying a good quality instrument. As we all know, strings instruments are very difficult to get a good sound from when we're all "beginners".
I had my wife get me an erhu when she went to China about 1.5 years ago, and she had someone there help her get a really good quality instrument -- it's not professional grade (with a famous player endorsement) but many people have commented about how good it sounds (even my teacher). I'm really happy with it and it sounds better as I improve -- can't wait to hear how it sounds in a few years!!!! (Still not planning on quitting my day job!!!).
As far as keeping the sound to a low volume, you might want to try and use a large piece of felt to minimize the skin vibrations while playing. The new felt should cover the entire bottom half circle of the skin face. Also, you could cover the rear opening of the resonator box with some heavy cloth and a rubber band to hold it in place. These two methods together should muffle the sound enough. I would think that some sound has to come out so you can hear what you're playing. I also have a tuner program that I run when practicing as this helps me determine if I'm on the right note -- actually, I'm always on the right note but I'm usually too sharp or too flat!!! I clip a small computer microphone to the back of the erhu -- works great.
My teacher keeps stressing to me the importance of hard bowing, and using the full length of the bow always to develop a good technique. You'll really have to figure out how to keep the volume down as hard bow creates all kinds of weird sounds!
Regards,
Paul Valente
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 4, 2005 1:37:09 GMT
Hi guys..
Paul is very very right. Bowing technique is THE most important aspect of erhu playing. I made the joke when i'm conducting my little kids orchestra, telling them that i'll be ordering 20-cm bows for them, since thats all they usually use anyway.... your bow is 70-80 cm long, USE IT ALL.
With new instruments, its darn hard to know which one will be a good erhu or which will be a bad one. However, we can only judge the potential instruments. Quality materials, fine workmanship, a right combination. So long as the dynamics is there, its ability to withstand very hard bowing on very high notes without cracking, chances are that your baby erhu will grow up fine and as the skin slightly mellows, sound sweeter than ever.
David, you might want to put a pencil above your bridge. It will mute out your erhu sound, and if you do not need to listen to tone.
The felt placed below then bridge is a wolf-eliminator, a tone cleaner and a simple equalizer all into one. notice that all erhus have them?
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Post by paulv on Feb 4, 2005 15:38:10 GMT
YouLanFengChune, Ni hao!
Since we're on the subject of erhu construction, do you have an opinion of sound differences between an octagon versus hexagon shape resonator box on an erhu? I've heard that in northern China, people prefer the octagon (maybe because 8 is lucky?), but the hexagon shape seems to be the shape of choice.
Also, after David gets his snake skin replaced (assuming he does), should he "oil" it periodically?
Regards, Paul Valente
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Post by calden on Feb 4, 2005 19:03:42 GMT
Wow - a sudden burst of erhu energy. How wonderful!
George Gao (ggao.com) talks about using synthetic head material for his erhus. The drum manufacturer Remo makes what they call fiberskyn to replace skin heads on drums and banjos. It's essentially a plastic head with a top layer of inconsistent thickness plastic bonded to it to simulate calfskin heads. It comes in different thicknesses. I've got some emails out now to try and get sheet material of this stuff. Right now it's about $15 for an 11" banjo head already attached to a metal hoop, and I might go that route anyways. I'm mostly concerned about the snakeskin head eventually splitting from dryness.
I remembered seeing on some erhu products site a mute. Can't guess where it attaches. Maybe it was simply a bridge that spanned the diameter of the barrel body that you'd slip in under the strings, as you do a pencil to rellieve the head of tension from the strings when not playing. In fact, now I think of it, it would be dead simple to make something like that.
I also concur with the bowing comments. Use the full bow, full arm, and make it loud and strong. It's much easier to pull back from having that technique than it is to try and get louder when you're only used to using half an arm and lighter pressure.
Carlos
Go see my recent entry under "performances and events" to learn about my Chinese music radio show this Sunday afternoon! Spans the ages, from bronze bells in the Warring States Period to Cui Jian! I've even included a version of Butterfly Lover, a tune from The 12 Girls Band, and some field material (Na Ni Wan) recorded in People's Park in Shanghai.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 4, 2005 21:18:36 GMT
Since we're on the subject of erhu construction, do you have an opinion of sound differences between an octagon versus hexagon shape resonator box on an erhu? <snip> Another option is a rounded/oval resonator that I have seen on the www.melodyofchina.com site. Is it only a cosmetic difference? Also, after David gets his snake skin replaced (assuming he does), should he "oil" it periodically? I hope everyone realizes that I don't moult, and that we are talking about my erhu, right? <g> Best wishes, David
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 4, 2005 21:32:56 GMT
I believe that CCN offers an erhu with hide (deer?) rather than snake. It would be interesting to try different materials to see the effect on the sound. How difficult is it to attach a new membrane? I wonder what sort of glue is used.
I will discuss replacing the snake on my ehru with my new teacher and then decide what to do.
Regarding the bowing, the previous owner of my nhi held the bow a few inches further down the bow than he might have, leaving a finger oil stain on the bow hairs. This part of the bow does not pick up resin very well and does not sound good. Well, being a beginner, I don't make the nhi sound particularly good with any part of the bow <g>, but the oiled section is particularly bad. This effectively shortens my bow. Does anyone have suggestions for cleaning this section so I can use more of the bow? Otherwise, the bow seems fine with plenty of hair strands.
Thanks.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 4, 2005 22:41:47 GMT
Hello.
Most shanghai and Shuzhou erhu (wang gengxin, wan qi xing, hu han rou and Cadenza's makers) use the hexagonal system. Seems to me that they are looking for a certain resonance in the erhu. It makes the erhu dynamically big and maximises its stretch.
Ocatagonal is more towards the Beijing side. Round ones are typical, expecially of GuangDong Gaohu. Earliest erhus were made of bamboo tubes. Hence, more erhus would try to mimic the roundness. However, when its round, calculations tends to be skewed.
On the whole, the more sides the erhu has, the more mellow it sounds. I wonderwwhy, but when its round, i dun like it.
On the topic of hide and skin, forget it. Personally, hides, nylon, fish skin (ewwww) sheep skin are poor substitues. The usage of these in erhu is not because of the caring of nature, but the fact that china require liscences to kill snakes. Hence, quality snakeskin is now getting rare. I work for Cadenza, and yeah, we import snakeskin from India and South East Asia, where these are snakes farmed for musical instrument skins., and import them to china. Hence we are able to keep prices of erhu low, and with best quality snake skin.
The erhu mude clipes on the small bridge. Its quite effective, but using it requires some skill.
For oiled bow, a oiled bow is a bad bad bow, and please do not overoil skin. You'll make the skin sag very soon. once a month is good enough. Use a small brush and please spread sparingly.
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 4, 2005 23:10:01 GMT
For oiled bow, a oiled bow is a bad bad bow, So, is there a way to remove the oil from the hairs and restore the bow? Thanks. Best wishes, David
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 5, 2005 13:33:40 GMT
A bow costs only $20++. don't waste the effort cleaning a bow.
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Post by calden on Feb 5, 2005 16:37:57 GMT
A bow costs only $20++. don't waste the effort cleaning a bow. True... Also, if you really like the feel of your bow, you could see how much it would cost to have it rehaired. Most likely more than $20, but again, if you like your bow. I would think that it would be a straightforward job, even for someone who had never seen an erhu bow. Carlos
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 6, 2005 1:02:46 GMT
True... Also, if you really like the feel of your bow, you could see how much it would cost to have it rehaired. Most likely more than $20, but again, if you like your bow. I would think that it would be a straightforward job, even for someone who had never seen an erhu bow. Carlos My the hair on my bow looks as if it would be easy to change if the replacement was similar to what is there now. Are these things relatively standard? From pics on the web it appears that some bow frogs are plastic. I would not want to replace my bow with plastic. Even if a bow is $20 or so, with shipping it might be closer to $50. If I can replace just the hair, and it fits the bow, I will probably pay a lot less. Is this realistic? Best wishes, David
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Post by YouLanFengChune on Feb 6, 2005 1:23:35 GMT
To Ship a bow, it costs under $10.
I have ppl who would make bows for you, and you have a choice of how thick you wanna it to get, 88 hairs, 65 hairs etctec
however, you need to see, whether you like beijing style,(flattened out) ort shanghai style (in a roll)
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 6, 2005 6:35:49 GMT
I have ppl who would make bows for you, and you have a choice of how thick you wanna it to get, 88 hairs, 65 hairs etctec however, you need to see, whether you like beijing style,(flattened out) ort shanghai style (in a roll) I would be interested to know what is most popular regarding hair count and style (flat vs roll). It appears to me that the bows I have are roll style. Best wishes, David
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