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Post by christephens on Sept 12, 2016 1:20:02 GMT
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 13, 2016 16:43:20 GMT
I don't know the history of the tune, but maybe some generalities will help. Traditional tunes can exist in different settings, coming from different playing traditions, or schools. As time goes on, a player may incorporate ideas from one setting with another, creating yet a different arrangement. Maybe this is less common with recent composed tunes which are expected to be played as written down, but it even happens in these cases. I am thinking of Sai Ma (Horse Race) for erhu, which is a relatively recent tune, with some variations. I have studied erhu and guzheng tunes such as those by Liu Tian Hua, which were definitely expected to be played as written.
You might try to contact Dr. Samuel Wong for a more authoritative answer. I doubt he has time to keep up with postings on this forum.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by christephens on Sept 15, 2016 18:10:18 GMT
Thanks, David. Can you pm me his contact info?
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Post by samuelwong on Sept 18, 2016 2:55:06 GMT
Hi David,
I got your email. Thanks for alerting me. Indeed, I've been really busy and have not been keeping up with the threads on the forum.
Hi Christevens,
The Score for Beyond the Frontier was originally found in Hua Qiuping's Pipa Scores of the Northern and Southern Schools. The piece can be subdivided into 5 smaller pieces: 1. Thinking of Spring, 2. Lament of Zhaojun, 3.Reminicing with Tears, 4. The Dresser 5. Lament.
Hua Quiping in his score, gave the nickname 'Ancient Tunes of Wulin' to this piece, as it might have been very popular in the Zhejiang Schools of Pipa.
Wu Meng Fei (1893-1979), a pipa player of considerable renown, rearranged the score to a shorter version comprising 3 sections: 1. Thinking of Spring 2. Autumn Thoughts, 3. Shedding Tears using the original score from Hua as source material.
Liu Dehai's performance version of this piece is Wu's version. In Liu Dehai's scores for this work, he specifically states that he used Wu's version of the score. Most of the other pipa players stick to Hua's original score of 5 pieces.
In the past, the only way to learn the pipa was to join a School of Playing as there were no conservatories. One had to look for a master who was affiliated to one of the schools. There are generally 5 accepted schools of playing: Pudong, Chongming, Wuxi, Pinghu, Shanghai (named after the various regions south of the Yangtze river) . But the schools all played mostly the same pieces as they relied on scores that were passed down. In order to differentiate between their playing and repertoire styles, they created "versions" of the standard pipa pieces. As such you will find variation in other classic pipa pieces like "Ambush" and "The Conqueror Unarms" as well - depending on which version that the performer wishes to adopt.
Hope this helps!
Sam
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Post by christephens on Sept 19, 2016 2:29:34 GMT
Thank you so much! You answered my question and more! It's interesting to hear there are 'parts' of the piece, I can hear different melodies that sound like distinct separate pieces now that you mention it. I assume they are separated by the open 12th fret harmonic on low A. Thank you for being such a resource!
If you find the time, you may be interested in investigating the Wu Mengfei recording and compare it with that of Liu Dehai. They sound identical, from the tiniest nuances down to the tonal color of the recording itself. Not to accuse without more information, but if that is not Liu Dehai, that pipa player has perfectly mimicked his recording. I think there was a mix-up somewhere.
Could you tell me the real name of this tune? www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYImrtkJkuk
It says 'Chen Sui' but it doesn't sound anything like the other recordings of that piece. |
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Post by samuelwong on Sept 20, 2016 15:48:06 GMT
Hi Christephens,
This is indeed Chen Sui, but its the Chen Sui score passed down by Shen Hao Chu, and rearranged by the late Mr Lin Shi Cheng from the Pudong school of playing. Mr Lin was Wu Man's teacher and its natural that she adopted his rendition of the work.
The version that you're more acquainted with is Liu Dehai's version of Chen Sui, which he edited based on Cao Anhe's score. Mr Liu by now, if you realise, had a huge impact on pipa repertory in the 21st century. He took the liberty to edit quite a number of these traditional pieces and make them his own (oftentimes composing sections which were not in the traditional scores) and shortening many of the pieces, incurring the wrath of many traditionalists (including Lin Shicheng himself - for many years, they did not speak, until Liu invited Lin to one of his concerts and acknowledged his teacher in public).
Unfortunately i cannot open the link to the Wu Mengfei recording, but I suspect that it might just be Liu himself. It was not common for commercial pipa recordings to happen during Wu's prime and Liu is known to have recorded extensively.
hope this helps.
Sam
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Post by christephens on Sept 20, 2016 18:00:46 GMT
Thank you for explaining this! It's very surprising that are called the same name when they sound so different, I can't find a shared melody between them! I'm learning the Wi Man Chen Sui and I'm glad to know there wasn't a mixup with the name.
This is fascinating to me and i could bother you forever about the subject of pipa playing.
One more question if you have time : has there ever been an improvised system like the Indian Raga or Persian Maqam/Dastgah in Chinese music? Or something like Korean Sanjo where the performances are not memorized compositions? I find it strangely lacking given their musical neighbors in Xinjiang. I've read some Guqin players improvise or used to but I've never knowingly heard it.
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Post by miklos on Sept 8, 2017 20:03:59 GMT
Hi Chris, Nick MGill here. Man, you have some very good ears and a strong technical ability, keep it up! I'm playing my pipa, but just ordered a guzheng for a little more of that great Chinese sound that fills my head all the time.
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Post by ntp0210 on Mar 19, 2018 20:19:11 GMT
This song, just like many Chinese pieces, has a couple different variations. Chinese music is pretty flexible in terms of improvising to make it sound better. But there is a fine line between changing a couple bars and completely destroying a whole song. Pieces like these are very old and have gone through many variations for many reasons. Certain people think it should be played a certain way because it sounds better, its easier to play, they think it is supposed to be played a certain way, etc. I have learned 3 variations of the song King Chu Doffs His Armor on the pipa and it is all really a matter of personal preference.
Take a look at Cantonese music with the gaohu. Every gaohu player will play one song differently. The notes, bowing, tempo, etc., are all different with each player. It is the exact opposite of Western music, like the violin and piano, where you must play everything according to the score. This is not true with Chinese music.
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Post by davidmdahl on Mar 20, 2018 17:35:36 GMT
<snip> Take a look at Cantonese music with the gaohu. Every gaohu player will play one song differently. The notes, bowing, tempo, etc., are all different with each player. It is the exact opposite of Western music, like the violin and piano, where you must play everything according to the score. This is not true with Chinese music. I have noticed that gaohu master Yu Qiwei changes details in tunes from one performance to the next. I have some transcriptions of his performances of tunes, and several recordings of the same tunes, and all are a bit different from each other. Of course the variations are not willy-nilly. They are all within the bounds of the "tradition". Probably a master like Yu Qiwei is equipped to build upon the tradition. When you listen, it just sounds right. There is a tradition or performance practice in Western classical music too. The score is certainly sacred, but performers often fiddle with tempo, phrasing, voicing, and other details that are not necessarily specified. Traditional music as in Cantonese music definitely has looser rules. Best wishes, David |
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Post by ntp0210 on Mar 21, 2018 23:44:53 GMT
Yu QiWei's style is very bold and contemporary compared to past legends. I had the opportunity to study with him once and his teaching is amazing. That is why he is one of the legends in Cantonese traditional music. He broke the typical playing style and sound with his own and made it a standard. Every performance he has, he will have little changes here and there. This really depends on his mood at that moment. A lot of people do that. I do that every time I perform as well.
In Western music, yes they mess around with tempo and stuff like that but to a very short extent. In Cantonese music, the boundaries are much farther. It is just a matter of whether one's ability to make it sound good or not.
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