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Post by christephens on Mar 19, 2015 2:04:18 GMT
I've been wondering about a few things regarding the pipa. I figure this is the best place to put my questions and discussion points so here goes:
1. Is there a difference between the nails the besides thumb and pinkie?
2. What should I do if my frets are out of tune when the string is in tune but perfect if the string is tuned a little flat?
3. Why isn't there an improvised form of music with the pipa (or any chinese instrument) similar to the Arabic Taqsim, Persian Dastgah, or Indian Raga? Everything is arranged and memorized, isn't there a modal system like other eastern classical music? Surely there used to be an improvised music in China from the silk road, or has music always been memorized? Perhaps in western China, closer to the Arab/Persian/Indian forms?
4. Does anyone have the smartphone app "Pipa Songs"? It has some really good pieces on it but the titles are in chinese. Could someone translate for me?
Thank you all for the community here and there chance to talk about this instrument and its music. I love it.
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 19, 2015 13:22:56 GMT
Hi Chris:
1. Yes, but quite slightly. If you buy hand crafted nails, the middle finger tends to be a little rounder, while the forefinger and the ring finger nails are interchanged sometimes.
2. Normally, we break the fret off and glue it back again.
3. The cultural revolution got rid of most of that - its a whole new story in itself. After the liberation of China, musicians modelled themselves after the western system, which they believed was the system for improvement and modernisation. All pieces were from then on scored and notated, and conservatory musicians were required to read western notation. There are folk ensemble genres where improvisation is used, like jiangnan sizhu for example. The improvisations are in the form of performance practices - to make the music sound as authentic to the region and its origin.
4. I just downloaded it...Im rather amused that there is such an app, i didn't know of it! haha...let me know which songs (number) you're interested in.
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Post by davidmdahl on Mar 19, 2015 14:30:03 GMT
I can't speak for the pipa, but at least for huqins there is more room for variation, if not actual improvisation, for traditional tunes. Modern composed tunes where we actually have an original published score are maybe more tied down, but even then you will see variations from one performer to another. Maybe Erquan Yingyue is played pretty much the same way, but Ping Hu Qiu Yue can vary a lot more.
In Western Classical music, like piano Sonatas of Beethoven or Mozart, all of the notes are expected to be played as written. Any note played that is not in the score is considered a mistake by the performer. Western folk and traditional music is a lot more loose. Variations are to be expected, as long as they fit the style or the "tradition". I think the same is expected in the Chinese non-Conservatory forms, such as Silk and Bamboo (Jiangnan Sizhu), as Sam mentioned.
I have several recordings bye the gaohu master Yu Qiwei. Transcriptions of tunes he has recorded are available, but it is interesting to note that often times the transcriptions don't quite exactly match the recording. I expect that every time Yu Qiwei records a tune, it is slightly different. The essentials are there of course, but the tune is so much a part of him, that he can play it anew each time and be perfectly correct.
Variation is not the same as pure improvisation, but it is on the same street.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by christephens on Mar 20, 2015 4:06:49 GMT
David, yes i've heard much variation between the pieces themselves. Some sound totally different when sped up/ slowed down, certain embellishments and techniques by different players, etc. I see the connection there, but the huge difference between variation and improv is substantial; not knowing what you are going to play next. Thank you so much Sam. Do you know the name of the improvised system that was once used? What was a 'mode' called back then? Like 'raga' in India. Its really a shame there doesn't exist a form like that in China, it seems so natural for the music to be improvised. Not to use a cliche term but 'zen' comes to mind. Have there been any efforts by players to revive this system? As for the translations, #7 is a favorite i've never heard before as are 8, 17, 30, 48, 49, 59 & 68. 34 is really one of the best pieces i've heard, i like the slow, peaceful side of the pipa. one of them is 'On the Frontier' I think. 56 is an interesting piece, it sounds like maqam hijaz from arabic music.
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 20, 2015 15:27:55 GMT
Hi chris,
there were multiple different modes that were used then, much like the rag-s in India.
7 - Dao Chui Lian (Falling Curtain)- a cantonese piece that actually makes fun of the empress dowager who ruled from a curtain with an iron fist. it needed to sound humorous to mask any any governmental sentiment
8 - Chu Shui Lian - Lotus out of Water - transcribed by the pipa player Lin Shicheng orignally a zheng piece transcribed for pipa
17 - Sai Shang Qu - (on the frontier) - based on the Pinghu School of playing. Traditional piece based on the story of the concubine Wang Zhao Jun.
30 - Si Xiang Qu - composed by Hong Kong Chinese Orchestra's conductor Yan Hui Chang, played by Zhang Tie who currently teaches in the Shanghai Conservatory
48 - Ying Zhou Gu Diao (ancient tunes of yingzhou) - these are 8 songs that have been put together to describe the beauty of Yingzhou
49 - Hua Ba Jie Zhi Ye - Night of the Torch Festival, written by Wu Junsheng, it describes the dances of the yunnan people during the torch festival
59 - Chen Sui - traditional, this piece loosely translated as Chen and Sui dynasties are a variant of the frontier story. Where palace maidens were longing for home
68 - Gao Shan Liu Shui - (High Mountain and Flowing Water), this is the pipa player Wang Fandi's transcription of the work. Also originally written for guzheng
34 - Pu An Zou - Chant of Pu'an, this piece has its origins from Buddhist music. This is Pipa player Li Guang Zhu of the Weng school of pipa playing's rendition
56 - The Sun shines on Taxkorgan. This piece was originally written by Chen Gang for violin and was later transcribed for pipa by Chen Yin. The version you hear is Chen yin's rendition of it. yes it sounds very much like the maqam as it was based on music from xinjiang, specifically the piece "Spring in Pa mi er"
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Post by davidmdahl on Mar 20, 2015 17:13:01 GMT
Christephens, I think of improvisation on a sliding scale from variation on one end and free improvisation at the other end. I am getting in to dangerous territory by making generalizations, but I suggest that it is highly unusual for improvisation to be completely unplanned and unstructured. A musician improvises within a tradition, choosing melody, rhythm, harmony and chord changes if any, that fits in that tradition. A jazz musician is certainly free to choose from a wide variety of structures and choices, so the rules are not constraining so much as providing a template to hang a tune.
In Vietnam, the Vong Co, Ngac Tai Tu, and Ca Tru forms require significant improvisation skills, that are within tight limits. I don't know what there is in mainstream Chinese traditional music, but the Xiao performances by Taiwanese Winson Laio on Youtube sound like improv to me. Quite lovely.
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Post by christephens on Mar 21, 2015 1:50:10 GMT
Wow Mr. Wong, you are an incredible resource! Does the music of Xinjiang incorporate improvisation similar to an arabic maqam?
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 21, 2015 20:33:46 GMT
Hi Chris,
Lol... It's my job, I had better or I'll be out of one.
And to answer your question, the original piece spring in pa mi er, yes. But Chen yin's version, no. It's scored to a T. Any rearraanged work usually does not allow improv.
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Post by christephens on Mar 23, 2015 1:21:51 GMT
Very nice. I'd love to hear something improvised on the pipa in the old way. Is there any recording or performer who plays the old improvised way?
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 23, 2015 17:49:30 GMT
Hi Chris, no...well thats because the instrument that you and I play now is a reconstructed version from the 1960s China. Its a modern pipa. In order to hear that kind of improvised playing, you might want to try listen to nanyin music. They use a pipa too, but its way older than the versions that we use today.
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Post by christephens on Mar 26, 2015 14:07:37 GMT
I see. There doesn't appear to be a lot of improvised pieces under the search 'nanyin' or 'nanguan' on youtube, I'll have to keep digging. What is the name of the music associated with the guqin, particularly the solo performances that appear to be improvised and are generally slow and serene? Like the way Li Xiangting plays.
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Post by daidai on Apr 2, 2016 3:57:09 GMT
Gao Hong has written an extensive Pipa Method book in English - the first of its kind. It will be published through Hal Leonard this June and is already available for pre-order though Amazon.com. It comes wit a DVD showing the playing techniques and many scores. It is suitable for Beginners through Intermediate levels and also has a very valuable section for composers.
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Post by dawei on May 28, 2017 17:16:43 GMT
Gao Hong has written an extensive Pipa Method book in English - the first of its kind. It will be published through Hal Leonard this June and is already available for pre-order though Amazon.com. It comes wit a DVD showing the playing techniques and many scores. It is suitable for Beginners through Intermediate levels and also has a very valuable section for composers. It's a pretty decent effort, and I am thankful for an English language pipa method. |
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