Number of pieces one can play

[guzhenglover]

Hi all

Just wondering what the situation is out there with this one - recently someone tells me that it can be reasonable to expect to learn to play only 3 - 5 guqin pieces in a year, and that even a guqin master may not be able to play more than 100 pieces over the period of his entire lifetime. Is this true? I'd find that pretty off-putting if that were the case. I know quality matters more than quantity but, after all, music (at least to me) isn't just about trying to reach perfection but enjoyment!

[Si]

i think u can learn more than that in one year especially if u have a teacher. i have learnt 10 in 1.5 years. but i suppose the more u learn in one year the lesser the quality of your playing.

[Charlie Huang]

well, it's all relative imo. whether you have a repertoire of one piece or a hundred pieces doesn't really reflect on your ability or enjoyability of qin! for example, i use to love to learn as many new pieces as possible but now i find it rather redundant and now concerntrate on around 10-15 pieces and learn new ones as and when appropriate like if i was taught at the summer school.

if you enjoy learning many pieces then it's really up to you. no one can or will stop you. however, there is a difference between playing many pieces brilliantly and playing many pieces badly. few, if anyone, can unless they are conservatory trained to be a monkey organ grinder churning out tunes by the bucketload...

[SCWGuqin]

As Charlie said, this will all depend on what your goals are. It's customary for qin players to aim for about a dozen pieces as core repertoire. Even the "big boys" do this, with LXT and GY playing the same clutch of pieces over and over and over. (I do believe there are 2 GY CDs, separate recordings and releases, with exactly the same program.) It's essential to distinguish performing goals from personal goals. If, like me, you obsess a lot about performance, then that priority might shape your active repertoire. If you're not really into that, then whether you play 1 piece or 100 is entirely your own choice. Let us never forget Liu Shaochun's immortal words: "You can go around the world on half of Ping Sha Luo Yan."

[Charlie Huang]

i think in western music, a musician may memorise a couple of core pieces whilst the rest he is familiar with but require sightreading notation. we won't go there again but the qin doesn't have this luxury so we require pure memory. learning 100 pieces and trying to keep them to long term memory is beyond most of us unless you turn into nothing short of a master or a savant.

[guzhenglover]

What I'd like to be able to do is to find a balance between sheer disciplined practice concentrating on a few pieces and exposure to different pieces beyond just 1 or 2 for a musically interesting contrast and variety. When I studied the piano at the con it was normal and expected to be able to learn more than 50 major piano works each year (I mean stuff like concerti, suites, sonatas and not individual movements or pieces). So I don't think the comparison exists between western (well at least piano) music and qin music at least in this regard. One thing that perhaps I should've told you guys is that I've changed teachers and the change in how different people teach is just amazing (not that this was a surprise). My first teacher wasn't able to give me regular lessons (well the plan was to have a long lesson every fortnight, but this didn't always work and more often than not, we ended up having a long lesson on three- or four-week intervals, which was undesirable from my point of view). He allowed me to progress freely, and yes i did find enjoyment doing that having learnt something like 30 pieces in 3 months. It wasn't till now that I've got a different teacher that I am finding out what I've been lacking, I mean instruction-wise. My new teacher is almost obssessed with the rhythm (OK, that's not a very fair thing to say, but he only uses scores that contains both qin and western notation and expects one to follow the rhythmical rendition that's already there faithfully, even though I've argued with him that rhythm is one of those things that's not set in stone at least from the viewpoint of qin music...). But the good things about this new teacher is that he pays a lot of attention to detail and does not encourage me to simply explore new pieces without first spending lots of time on each individual piece. This means that I am now only assigned 1 or 2 pieces to practise each week, and I am expected to practise an hour and a half each day just on those pieces. I don't mind this new "regime", I suppose, except that I am now left wondering why I am learning guqin. It's like going back to the days at the con except that my purpose now compared to then is entirely different i.e. I want to be able to enjoy practising and making quality qin music (which is not to say that I didn't enjoy my days at the con, but anyway...). Am I so wrong in even questioning the teacher...?

[SCWGuqin]

Being a beginner sucks! It's that simple. Being a beginner sucks. I was a beginner for a long time. I understand some of your frustration regarding instruction and guidance. I think there's a balance to be struck between (1) doing every single thing your teacher says, which builds discipline and enlightens you to things you might not have noticed, and (2) being true to yourself. Generally, remember that extraordinary means ordinary + extra, not extra without the ordinary! Unless your teacher's ways are intolerable, try to do every single thing he says and then IMPROVE on the result by adding your own feeling or insight.

[guzhenglover]

utmostvacuity2 said:

Being a beginner sucks! It's that simple. Being a beginner sucks. I was a beginner for a long time. I understand some of your frustration regarding instruction and guidance. I think there's a balance to be struck between (1) doing every single thing your teacher says, which builds discipline and enlightens you to things you might not have noticed, and (2) being true to yourself. Generally, remember that extraordinary means ordinary + extra, not extra without the ordinary! Unless your teacher's ways are intolerable, try to do every single thing he says and then IMPROVE on the result by adding your own feeling or insight.

There's someone who understands! Still, how does one "spice up" one's practice routine? How do you all make practising interesting when you are working on the same piece for an hour and a half?

I can't believe I am asking these questions, actually - these were the kind of things I used to explain to my piano students But then again, my students always had at least 2 or 3 pieces + techynical exercises to "entertain" themselves with for each given week...I guess I have to remind myself that there's just no comparison between qin and the piano at least when it comes to practising...being a beginner really (quote) sux (and unquote)!

[SCWGuqin]

Part of the problem with the qin tradition is that it teaches music strictly as a series of pieces. Customarily in qin music you just learn piece after piece after piece ad infinitum--and it's usually really a small number. There seem to be so few pieces available. I think approaching the tradition as just a clutch of pieces, for the most part unalterable, is death. You can make things more fun for yourself, improve your musicality, and also understand qin music better by not simply playing the material you are given, but by adding. Invent your own exercises to understand modes, as discussed in other threads. Try to render non-qin songs and pieces you like on the qin. Play the traditional pieces in weird personal ways that let you explore differences in timbre and dynamics. And so on. If you want more detail or specific suggestions I could offer them.

[guzhenglover]

utmostvacuity2 said:

If you want more detail or specific suggestions I could offer them.

Yes please.

[davidmdahl]

utmostvacuity2 said:

Being a beginner sucks! It's that simple. Being a beginner sucks. I was a beginner for a long time.<snip>

I don't know how it is on a guqin, but in general I love learning new instruments. In the beginning there is such a joy of getting to know an instrument as a new friend. Once I learn a few basic skills, I really enjoy the rapid progress that happens. Later on, I enjoy the freedom and expressive possibilities that come with greater skill.

I enjoyed the erhu from the very beginning. Maybe that helps get past the beginner stage sooner.

Best wishes,

David

[charliecharlieecho]

There's a difference between the qin and the erhu in that erhu pieces are taught from notations which show melodies but qin pieces are taught primarily as sequences of fingerings. Just as one example, some teachers won't tolerate substituting a gou for a tiao even though the note is exactly the same, because of the emphasis placed on the different sound qualities produced by different fingerings.

That's not to say that melody and phrasing aren't taught but in the early stages of learning a piece, especially for relative beginners, the focus is on getting fingerings correct, and I suspect that this colours the view a qin player has for a considerable time. I mustn't over-egg this however and I would expect the situation to be different for people who have learned other instruments by explicitly melody-based methods.

[Charlie Huang]

I agrre with CCEcho; I remember LXT putting me in my place four/five years back. trying to cram as many pieces in your head is not the mark of progress. the real progress is in the playing. if you can play up to a high standard then all pieces you learn after that will be of high standard. learn many pieces at low standard then they will all be played in low standard, and when you reach a high standard, you'll have to re-learn the whole lot again.

of course, enjoyability and progress are two different aspects. just as chinese music and western music have different aims and ideals.

you're a lot like me when i first started, gzl. you'll realise after a year or two what i realised...

i do occasionally finger a piece or two as a bit of fun but whether that piece turns into a serious 'core' piece is really dependant on one's feelings towards what he/she is playing. you eventually will 'feel' for certain pieces and will stick to them.

[SCWGuqin]

Regarding what David said: there may be more to it than the emphasis on fingering. The qin traditionally views itself as a profoundly disciplined and serious instrument, which lends a certain gravitas to the pedagogy. As originally a folk instrument now adapted for expressive, enjoyable concert music, the erhu has the ethos of beauty and enjoyment all the way down. Many of the melodies are catchy and fun. Not so with qin.

GZL: It's hard for me to specify more without, hah, being able to talk to you in person and demonstrate. But I think the first principle of practicing should be to understand what you are doing. That means not only practicing the pieces you are given, inside and out, but taking them apart and figuring out how they work. That means coming to an understanding of mode, rhythm, timbral differences, melodic form, and so forth. The best way to do that is to break the pieces down into sections and phrases and play them with variations--not just variations in pitch sequence (otherwise known as improvisation) but variations in treatment. One source of strength in the qin is the nearly infinite freedom given to the player to modify subtle aspects of treatment like rhythm, ornamentation, and timbre. With all those variations open, even very simple pieces can become fascinating and open up worlds of wonder.

Bottom line: If you're only given 1 or 2 boring pieces to practice, view their simplicity as an opportunity rather than a limitation. Seeing simplicity as a good rather than a bad thing is kind of what the qin is all about!

[Charlie Huang]

Wasn't it Li Bai who wrote "with one stroke of my hand, I conjure up myrid pines in the valleys?"

[guzhenglover]

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts and expertise. One admission - I guess when I first started learning I was kind of driven by peer pressure since many of you on this forum are often talking about working on new pieces or tackling the next big project...Don't get me wrong, I think peer pressure is perfectly good and healthy (at least for my qin progress)...I suppose I just need to adjust my thinking about how qin is a unique musical instrument and how it's important to practise in an entirely different way to, say, the piano and in the way that SCWGuqin suggests. And I admit that the initial frustration was comparing what I can do on the piano with what I canNOT do on the qin, when such a comparison is just not right...

[Charlie Huang]

I can think of a few things one canNOT do on a piano but can on a qin. Each instrument has its strengths and weaknesses, its qualities and such. You just need to 're-tune' yourself to the rythmn of the qin.

[guzhenglover]

admin said:

I can think of a few things one canNOT do on a piano but can on a qin. Each instrument has its strengths and weaknesses, its qualities and such. You just need to 're-tune' yourself to the rythmn of the qin.

I wasn't thinking about the limitations or shortcomings of either instrument. What I was saying was merely in relation to what I myself can or cannot do. There are obviously many things that we can do on a qin that we can't on a piano, or vice versa. I believe we all have enough musical wisdom to know that each instrument has its strengths and weaknesses.

[wingplum]

I think GuZheng is more fun to you than GuQin.

[guzhenglover]

wingplum said:

I think GuZheng is more fun to you than GuQin.

Dunno about that. I think I like both instruments. They are just completely different, that's all. I think I can still meet the challenge.

[Si]

Gzl - I dont think you need to follow your teachers instruction to the word. My teacher seemed happy that i spend 1hr a day, she even said 30mins in still good. Bottom line is be regular.

I just got back from England and I almost feel like im starting all my pieces from scratch. How to keep 10 tunes fresh in the mind especially after 3 weeks break.

Anyway now im in Singapore my strategy is to focus on 2 favourite pieces first to get good. And slowly build up so I have a sort of repertoire that i can play OKish.

Jack of all trades master of none is a phrase that can fit qin study well if you learn to many tunes.

By the way who is your teacher - sounds a bit scary. I should get another teacher though, althrough i dont want to start a new piece till i get all my old ones sounding better.

[Charlie Huang]

TBH, regular playing of a single piece can make it stick to the mind for much longer than 'disposable pieces'. The more you practice a piece, the better and more enjoyable it gets to play the piece since you are actively improving on it. It's a bit like going to an art gallery. You are not gonna get much out of the visit if you just walk through it like you're on rollerskates. You've got to stand/sit and savour the beauty. Same with food. And in music, I tend to not like things played too fast except in certain circumstances that enhances the experience (par example, Rostrapovich's rendition of Bach's Cello Suite Movement 1; the speed is justified IMHO).

Also, taking your time yields rewards too. Par example, I listened to Ao ai and had it in my mind for weeks and when I learnt to play it, it was smoother than when I tried to learn it last year (probably because I was put off by GY's score which I had to transcribe back into jianzipu). I nearly cracked it in one day TTYTT. But the more I play it, the more enjoyable it becomes as I try and manage to iron out the creases, expose my faults and correct certain problems each time. I think you cannot become a good player just by aiming to amass a roll of pieces but on the sheer quality of a few. You hear about players that are famous for their rendition of certain pieces, e.g. GPH and Liu Shui, et cetera. You don't hear much about players being famous for being able to play hundreds of pieces.

[Si]

i was told that a player is often known for one piece and they are given a special name that is dirived from the name of that piece for which they are known. if you know what i mean. cant remember the examples my teacher gave me, sorry....

[hezekiahpipstraw]

Zhang Longxiang (Zhang Ziqian and Long Xiang Cao) and Zha Xiaoxiang (Zha Fuxi and Xiao Xiang Shui Yun) spring to mind.

I'm more in the "who? what? what?" class, myself.

[tod]

This is a very interesting topic to me, because I'm been thinking about this more and more with each lesson - as soon as I reach some beginning proficiency with all the sections in a piece, my teacher gives me a new tune to learn. The problem I'm having is finding time to retain and improve the old tune while trying to learn a new one - especially since my lessons have been frequent, weekly. I've now cut back to every two weeks just to slow down the cycle a bit, which does help. My goal in enjoying playing the qin is definitely quality vs. quantity - I don't think the tunes should be disposable, and I have to say that by the time I've spent a week learning a new one, the old ones are not in memory any more. A desert island with the qin (and maybe a few other basic amenities) for several months might give me a repertoire of a few tunes at immediate playing recall - but I don't think thats gonna happen. So, my new strategy is to concentrate on the few that I like best, and try to keep the teacher occupied with teaching these. -- Best, Tod