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Post by christephens on Feb 25, 2015 14:33:58 GMT
Hello everyone, Im glad to join this forum. My question is about 'lun' technique on the pipa. How long did it take you to get a good sound from each finger and have a seamless rotation cycle? I cant seem to get the transition from pinky to thumb back to index without a short gap between the notes. Also im finding it difficult to separate my ring finger from my pinky. What are/were your methods for practicing lun in the beginning?
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Post by davidmdahl on Feb 25, 2015 17:03:02 GMT
Welcome to the forum, christephens. You might get into contact with Samuel Wong, who is a very experienced pipa player and teacher. He seems to be more active on Facebook, so you might try to find him there. Samuel wrote the very interesting book "Impressions of a Pipa Player" which I think should be read by every pipa student. Unfortunately it is a little pricey and hard to find. Maybe you could find it through your library.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by christephens on Feb 25, 2015 19:22:42 GMT
Thank you! I'll look for that book. I've been subscribed to his youtube channel for a long time, and watched the series taught by Yang Jing many times.
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 1, 2015 19:08:35 GMT
HI christephens,
There are a few practice pieces available to help work through this. But i think one must realise that the lun concept cannot be practiced by working on individual fingers, but as a whole - One complete lun cycle is the accumulation of 5 fingers worth of sounds.
Most beginners usually mistakenly practice lun finger by finger, and they and up doing tan tiaos using their middle, ring and pinkies.
Lun as a technique in the individual stages requires both strength and flexibility control. This would have to be trained from slow. Oftentimes students usually lun incredibly quickly to make their sounds sound linear due to a lack of control in their fingers and to coverup any unevenness that they have in their ring and pinkie fingers especially.
One's hand position and structure is integral in one's practice of lun. Also it must be noted that the lun exercises finger control (particularly the fingertips)l and not usually the use of the wrist.
Perhaps you can try this exercise: (you would need a metronome for this)
1. set at a slow speed 2. aim to complete 5 fingers in a rotation in one beat (index, middle, ring, pinkie and thumb) 3. when comfortable, and in rhythm, aim to complete one rotation of lun and then an index finger (6 notes altogether) in 2 beats this time, (by completing a full rotation of 5 fingers in one beat and then the index finger on beginning of the second beat - like a quintiplet in one beat and a semiquaver in the second beat). This exercise should sound seamless and in time, and the metronome will give you the distinct beats required.
hope this helps
Sam
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Post by christephens on Mar 1, 2015 23:03:55 GMT
Wow, thank you so much. BTW I love your youtube channel, I watch it everyday. Thank you for providing it.
I can do 1 cycle pretty well, all 5 fingers sound okay from index to thumb, (like the first line from "Dance of Yi Tribe") its the seamless repeating that I can't do yet. My lun sounds like 12345...12345...12345, the switch from thumb to index isn't fast enough to sound continuous. I've watched the Yang Jing video teaching Lun and it seems there is a little flick of the wrist that I can't get right. I'll keep trying!
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Post by song on Mar 3, 2015 8:14:18 GMT
HI christephens, There are a few practice pieces available to help work through this. But i think one must realise that the lun concept cannot be practiced by working on individual fingers, but as a whole - One complete lun cycle is the accumulation of 5 fingers worth of sounds. Most beginners usually mistakenly practice lun finger by finger, and they and up doing tan tiaos using their middle, ring and pinkies. Lun as a technique in the individual stages requires both strength and flexibility control. This would have to be trained from slow. Oftentimes students usually lun incredibly quickly to make their sounds sound linear due to a lack of control in their fingers and to coverup any unevenness that they have in their ring and pinkie fingers especially. One's hand position and structure is integral in one's practice of lun. Also it must be noted that the lun exercises finger control (particularly the fingertips)l and not usually the use of the wrist. Perhaps you can try this exercise: (you would need a metronome for this) 1. set at a slow speed 2. aim to complete 5 fingers in a rotation in one beat (index, middle, ring, pinkie and thumb) 3. when comfortable, and in rhythm, aim to complete one rotation of lun and then an index finger (6 notes altogether) in 2 beats this time, (by completing a full rotation of 5 fingers in one beat and then the index finger on beginning of the second beat - like a quintiplet in one beat and a semiquaver in the second beat). This exercise should sound seamless and in time, and the metronome will give you the distinct beats required. hope this helps Sam Sounds very much like practising vibrato on the erhu...
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Post by christephens on Mar 3, 2015 19:38:10 GMT
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 4, 2015 1:37:34 GMT
its way too fast! I have to rush out for a concert now. let me see what i can do when i come back home later!
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 4, 2015 11:58:19 GMT
Hi I don't normally do this... But here is a short video clip of the lun exercise I was talking about earlier. You can hear the metronome at the background. (The video is private) youtu.be/gHzbYf1xxVALun requires the control of speed as well as strength. While your strength part is quite alright, the control of speed is not there. Speed control will give the illusion that the lun is going faster than you can hear. Clarity makes everything seem faster. What a lot of new pipa players don't know is that lun is CALCULATED! The exercise will show you how to fit 5 notes in one beat, and then six to ten notes in two beats (cumulative to two successive lun cycles). When you master this, you can go ahead with long luns (it's just cycles of 2 luns + 2 luns and more) This exercise will help you with the continuity you need. For professionals, lun never goes beyond 10 notes per beat. Anything beyond 10 notes is no longer music (or listenable) I''ll take this video down in a few days. Hope this helps! Sam
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Post by christephens on Mar 4, 2015 15:16:14 GMT
Thank you so much, Sam, that video really helped me see what you're saying. I really appreciate you taking the time to make that for me, that was very generous of you. And for hosting the best pipa music videos on youtube. I watch your channel everyday. I can do this practice now, you sound great btw
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Post by samuelwong on Mar 5, 2015 1:04:14 GMT
No problem
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annk
Intermediate
Previously professional musician, now librarian ;-)
Posts: 38
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Post by annk on Jul 14, 2015 8:01:46 GMT
Too late to the party to have seen the demonstration of the exercise, but thanks so much for the detailed post explaining it! I've been learning chang lun for some months now, and am slowing getting better. But my teacher hasn't given me a good description of this type of exercise. To top it off, I probably don't understand all the nuances of her Chinese explanations.
My background is years of Western practice technique on other instruments, and I am used to a methodical approach like the one you describe. I've been trying to strike a balance between the dangers of too much of a "one finger at a time" approach, and a structured way to practice more correctly, but with a metronome and a progressive structure. My teacher has told me that there's no point in practicing lun slowly, but hasn't been able to give me any more specific information on practice technique. Thank you so much for your post, samuelwong!
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