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Post by tangogrey on Nov 26, 2014 2:25:13 GMT
I recently bought my first 'professional' quality Rosewood Zhongruan from China, and when it came one of the strings (the thickest) was completely loose (unwound). The ruan uses friction pegs (which I was unfortunately unfamiliar about), and when I went to tighten it I could not get the tightened peg to anchor and hold it's place in it's hole. It continually loosened after many attempts which wound up giving me blisters on my hand. Is this normal?...are friction pegs supposed to be this hard and time consuming? I loosened one of the other strings slightly to see if it would hold, and found the same issue. I then had to hold the peg tightly with it's string taut, and then forcibly jam it repeatedly into it's hole to hold it...not knowing what note it held, and afraid to touch it again. Any attempt to turn the peg while it was in the hole would only loosen the string completely again. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and how I can tune this ruan if the pegs don't hold when they are turned. I've since heard that gear peg ruans are much easier to tune, but I have this one now and need some help!
I'd also like to know where the best place to attach the bridge would be. It came separately and was not glued on. There seems to be a faint pencil mark on the front, but I've read on this blog that positioning is important. It there also a particular kind of glue that I should use for strength? Lastly, the paulownia wood front and back on this ruan looks extremely dry... dusty like something that's just been sanded, and after it's damp wiped (which temporarily returns the lustre) it returns to random 'sandiness'. Is there something (i.e. some kind of wood oil) that I can use on the paulownia to finish and preserve it? If so, is there something that you can recommend? The hardwood body and neck could also use a good polish and I'm frankly a little surprised at how aged this new but apparently older stock ruan looks. Would a furniture or cabinet polish do the trick? I want this instrument to look nice and keep well, but I also don't want to do anything that may affect it's tone or playability. I also don't want the unfamiliar paulownia wood to turn some ghastly color by using the wrong kind of oil, polish or product.
Any advise and experience would be most welcome!
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 26, 2014 7:41:05 GMT
Welcome to the forum, tangogrey. I am no expert on the zhongruan, but I do have one. I don't think that I have seen a ruan in life or photos with friction pegs. Without photos it is hard to provide much useful advice, so I suggest taking your instrument to a luthier, such as at a music store that has a repair dept for guitars or bowed strings. You will need someone to check out the pegs and holes. This would not be too exotic for someone used to repairing cellos. Maybe tuning gears could be fit replacing the pegs. If that is not possible, maybe new pegs could be made that better fit the peg holes. Get an estimate though. Sometimes the cost of fixing up a poor instrument is throwing good money after bad. If it has good tone, and appears to be well-built, it may be worth fixing. Before spending a bunch of money, you might also try a peg tightener: www.amazon.com/The-Original-Peg-Drops-Ardsley/dp/B000F3JO7M/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416987209&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=violin+peg+tightener&pebp=1416987224267I have never used this stuff, so I don't necessarily recommend it over another brand. I prefer geared tuners, so that is the way I would go if it were my zhongruan. Don't use furniture polish or anything designed for furniture on your zhongruan or any musical instrument. Usually a well-kept instrument only needs to be wiped off with a clean dry cloth. In limited cases, you could use something like Renaissance Wax or carnuba wax, but I would not put anything on the paulownia face or back. Best wishes, David |
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Post by edcat7 on Nov 27, 2014 14:51:24 GMT
Hi Tangogrey and welcome,
Without any photos it difficult to comment. My previous Zhongruan/liuqin teacher has a zhongruan with friction pegs. His one is Tang style and was made for him by his teacher's teacher. For fine tuning it has fine tuners on the base, much like a liuqin. The sound is not as loud as say a SGN one but I'm told it sounds more like a guqin.
Now I would not glue the bridge down to the soundboard, it's meant to be floating. You may have intonation problems, especially on intermediate and budget ones, but this can solved somewhat by rotating the bridge. Neither would I polish or stain the paulownia wood at all. There must be different grades of paulownia but over time the colour darkens. Keep your zhongruan at the correct humidity especially during cold dry conditions.
If the friction pegs are loose have you tried putting violin rosin on it. A worst case scenario is to take it to a luthier and have some new pegs custom made for you. Do you have a link to where you got it from?
Best wishes,
Ed
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Post by tangogrey on Nov 27, 2014 15:39:21 GMT
Thanks SO much for your advise!...I didn't know that a repair shop at a music store here could repair this kind of instrument, but I will definitely purchase some peg tightener drops first. I find it very interesting that you haven't seen any friction peg ruans as I was aware that these models are being cleared out but knew nothing of friction pegs when I purchased. After some investigation, I too saw no other friction peg models on the market. I would consider a return and subsequent purchase of a geared tuner ruan (which I would definitely prefer), but unfortunately it would involve having to pay expensive shipping fees 3X. Lesson learned: research, research, research, before you buy.
One last question, do you know where I might be able to get ruan instruction and/or lessons in book, online, or DVD format...in English? I've looked everywhere I can think but can't find anything. Thanks again for your help and info....Marion
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Post by edcat7 on Nov 27, 2014 16:39:37 GMT
Where are you in the world since I know a luthier in Canada who also plays the zhongruan. There's nothing wrong with friction pegs with or without liuqin type fine tuners, as long as the pegs fit properly. I rarely use the fine tuners on my liuqin anyway.
I have a few zhongruan books but they are in Chinese. I would advise you to get tuition, at least for a few months to get you started and help you understand jianpo. You have three options: find a zhongruan/liuqin teacher locally; take lessons via Skype, Eason does them, I've paid for 8 lessons in advance but haven't had the time to start.
or
start classical guitar lessons. Guitar players, especially classically trained ones seem to pick up the zhongruan easily.
Ed
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Post by davidmdahl on Nov 27, 2014 23:41:25 GMT
Regarding the peg drops, the usual instructions are to use as little as possible, such as one drop. If you get too much, it will make a mess and reduce the effectiveness. I have tried rosin and chalk on other instruments with pegs, and the results were not good. Rosin in particular made the pegs almost impossible to turn smoothly, so it was hard to move the peg to a certain spot. Good instruments can be made with friction pegs. They are the usual choice for high quality erhus, for example. I know nothing about the quality of your zhongruan, so you will have to be the judge of your own instrument.
I agree with the recommendation of not to glue the bridge. When you find the right spot, the pressure of the strings will hold it down.
I have never run across methods or DVDs in English for zhongruan. If you don't have anyone local to teach you, lessons over the Internet are probably the best choice.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by tangogrey on Dec 1, 2014 19:01:17 GMT
Thank you ALL for your input! I didn't know there were English internet lessons available. I've googled for lessons...both in book, dvd, and online form...but got no results other than the intro video that Eason provides. I also didn't know that they give lessons via Skype....expensive? I won't glue the bridge, but can you tell me how to find the "right spot" for it?...and what you mean by "rotating the bridge"?
davidmdahi...My zhongruan is from 'Shanghai Dunhuang' and although it's a professional model that retailed for over $600, as a 'newbie' I'm unsure as to whether it's one of the good quality instruments that you mentioned that can be made with friction pegs. I hope so...and I'd love to know.
edcat7...I'm located in Ontario, near Barrie which is about 100kl straight north of Toronto. I have the instrument here with me now (until Christmas) when I'll be giving it to my son to learn first. Unfortunately, he lives in NFLD (near St. John's), so for a luthier's evaluation it would have to be here in Barrie (or surrounding area as far as Toronto) before Christmas (preferred), or after in St. John's NFLD. Where is the luthier that you know in Canada that plays the zhongruan located? Would he have any further knowledge of where to find online English lessons? My son plays guitar, but not classical. I'm assuming it's different.
Marion
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 1, 2014 21:14:39 GMT
Thank you ALL for your input! I didn't know there were English internet lessons available. I've googled for lessons...both in book, dvd, and online form...but got no results other than the intro video that Eason provides. I also didn't know that they give lessons via Skype....expensive? I won't glue the bridge, but can you tell me how to find the "right spot" for it?...and what you mean by "rotating the bridge"? The bridge is supposedly in the correct position when the fretted note at the 12th fret is an octave above the open string note. This information comes from Ed in a post from several years ago, but I have heard it from other sources as well. Since the bridge is loose, it is not uncommon for the bridge to be installed incorrectly, the treble strings laying in grooves meant for bass strings, for example. Sometimes if you rotate the bridge 180 degrees, the strings will lay at better heights over the frets. davidmdahi...My zhongruan is from 'Shanghai Dunhuang' and although it's a professional model that retailed for over $600, as a 'newbie' I'm unsure as to whether it's one of the good quality instruments that you mentioned that can be made with friction pegs. I hope so...and I'd love to know. Dunhuang is a reliable maker, and they make instruments in a wide range of quality, from beginner on up. If the zhongruan retailed for over $600, and you paid close to that amount, it was at least not the cheapest model. It should work quite well, in fact. What is the model number? That should help us to better understand what you have. One good thing about Dunhuang, is that it should be much easier to get parts, if it turns out new tuning pegs might seat better. I would try out peg drops first, and see if that helps. Again, don't use too much. Properly sized and seated pegs should work fine. They are just a pain when they don't fit right. You might share your zhongruan troubles with Sung Wah at Eason. Since they service the instruments, he is likely to have some good suggestions and be able to supply parts. Best wishes, David |
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Post by tangogrey on Dec 1, 2014 21:30:29 GMT
Thanks again....I understand much better now, and I will contact him.
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 1, 2014 23:15:49 GMT
There should be a pencil outline where you place the bridge. I'm afraid I have no idea how to upload photos, (I'll get round to it someday), but when I mean rotate the bridge I mean only by a few degrees. For the sake or not repeating myself you can look at some older zhongruan threads.
Now that we know what make of zhongruan you have you can contact Eason for some replacement pegs. My geography of Canada is even worse than my computer skills but failing Eason you could contact Scot Tremblay in Victoria, BC. A guitar maker, he also plays zhongruan in a Chinese ensemble. If he is near enough I'm sure he'll gladly give lessons.
Somewhere on Eason's website there are charges for individual Skype lessons. They are around £GBP20 for 45 minutes.
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Post by davidmdahl on Dec 2, 2014 0:15:11 GMT
Ed, Toronto is in the other end of Canada from British Columbia, so it would not be a convenient commute for lessons. It is kind of the same sort of thing as New York City to Seattle. Tangogrey, I would expect there to be a good-sized Chinese community in Toronto, although I realize that is some distance from you. Unfortunately, all of my musical contacts in Toronto are Vietnamese, which won't help you with zhongruan instruction. You might look for Chinese cultural organizations in the Toronto area, but it is probably going to be difficult to find someone. There should be zhongruan players in NYC that could help you, if even by Skype. That would have the benefit of at least being in the same time zone as you. One possible contact might be through the ensemble Music from China www.musicfromchina.org/ . Best wishes, David |
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Post by edcat7 on Dec 2, 2014 1:45:15 GMT
Ed, Toronto is in the other end of Canada from British Columbia, so it would not be a convenient commute for lessons. It is kind of the same sort of thing as New York City to Seattle. I've since regretted not taking geography at high school.  The liuqin and I think the zhongruan were reintroduced in 1958. Previously the instrument was extinct. So I wasn't that surprised when I took my liuqin to my daughters' Chinese school, nobody knew what it was. A few thought it was a pipa. |
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Post by sanmenxia on Dec 7, 2014 14:28:36 GMT
Pegs work fine when they're properly shaped and fitted. Any good violin repairer should be able to help if they have the right tools, a tool like a pencil sharpener for the peg and a tapered cutting tool (reamer) to smooth out the hole. My guess is the tools for a cello could work for the zhongruan.
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