penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on Apr 30, 2014 8:51:59 GMT
Hi everyone, I have just started learning erhu as a senior citizen at 60 yrs old and I would like to know if anyone can share some experiences/difficulties as an erhu learner at this age. I have no music background but I am determined to learn the erhu as I find the sound fascinating. As a Chinese, the erhu has a very significant place in my culture. The difficulties that I encountered are: slow to learn/remember the music scores, my fingers are also not so flexible as the young ones. I attend a one-to-one erhu class once a week with a Chinese teacher. Just wonder how long do anyone of you take to master the erhu - I mean to be able to play a nice tune infront of others.
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Post by edcat7 on Apr 30, 2014 23:12:24 GMT
Hi Penny and welcome, I haven't reached 60 yet but I started my musical journey four years ago at the tender age of 42-43, first on the hulusi, then the dizi and erhu. Carl mentioned that it took him three years before he started on his first major piece Sai Ma. Until then it was basic exercises from the book. That is pretty much how I'm finding it too. My guess is your teacher will concentrate on the basics for a long time but don't be disheartened. I once had a lesson in which the entire lesson was spent playing just seven notes...frustrating for both of us...and he lives far away from me too! Besides a Chinese woman aged 60 looks years younger than her Western counterparts Ed
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Post by edcat7 on Apr 30, 2014 23:17:15 GMT
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Post by davidmdahl on May 1, 2014 1:59:31 GMT
Welcome to the forum, Penny! I am glad to see that you figured it out just fine.
I am very glad that you are taking lessons on the erhu. I encourage you to not think in terms of how long it is going to take to learn to play well. Certainly mastering the erhu can be a lifetime goal. Instead, I suggest that you get all the enjoyment you can from every day that you play the erhu. For myself, I found the feeling wonderful, at my first lessons, of simply making the strings vibrate with the bow. Even when the sound is causing people and small animals to leave the room, you can enjoy yourself. Progress will be quick at first as you get a handle on the basics a little bit at a time. Then, you may find it slow going. Just keep at it and don't worry about how long it is taking.
A problem that adult music students have is that their tastes are more mature than their skills, and often get discouraged easily. Take satisfaction in the accomplishment of small goals, and be patient with yourself. Regular practicing, as in some every day, is very important. It is better to practice a little every day, than a lot for a few days. If you can, break up your practice time into 20 or 30 minute sessions. Practicing when you are truly focused is more effective than when you are tired.
Have fun!
Best wishes,
David
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Post by tremelo on May 1, 2014 6:23:53 GMT
hi penny,
erhu BASICS is easy to pick up. you will have fun even playing do re mi and then improvising the notes to form a improvised tune. when learing to play in the various key, the tip is they fall into some sort of fingering pattern. example D, G, traditional C key are roughly the same fingering pattern/method. F, Bb keys are generally the same fingering patterns/method. So nothing to be concern about when you had learn to play F and your teacher wants to teach you Bb next.
you will probably be taught D or G key first and then F key and so on. many basic but nice and catchy tune are in these few keys. F and Bb are very nice keys. in whatever key you are playing, erhu fingering are in relation to the 2 notes that are on the open strings, so getting the habit of fingering postion accuracy is important.
how to become good in order to play a nice tune in front of an audience? learn or memorise the song and sing or hum the tune in your head and then you will find learining to finger the notes will be easier. WHEN YOU find you can play the song already, play the song to your family members. it is not the same as when you are playing to yourself. you will feel the pressure to play well and no mistakes. in time you will absorb and overcome the "stage fright" thing. continue tell some friends who visit, sit them down and annouce that you are going to play a song for them. try it.
sai ma is a catchy tune, not difficult to learn the song and be able to hum the tune in your head. my experiemce self taught when learning sai ma. the challenge of this short and catchy tune is the part where you do the fast bowing of 2 to 3 lines. i can play these 2 to 3 lines (because they are also very easy and catchy lines) but my bowing is simple slow bowing (maybe i need a teacher to show me) not the attack fast wrist action bowing..lol! it doesnt matter as long you have fun playing it and of course it must not be out of tune. lol.
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Post by kindererhu on May 1, 2014 22:20:28 GMT
Greetings, Penny I started taking erhu lessons exactly two years ago at age 66. I play cello but have arthritis in my hands and decided that the erhu would be a good aging instrument since it doesn't require as much hand tension (pressing string against a fingerboard)....I also love the sound! David gives good advice as well as the others here. Having played cello gives me a little starting advantage since the strings are tuned the same as the top two cello strings. BUT I have a terrible time getting up to speed (i.e. of the horse racing pieces and the music our orchestra plays). My teacher creates a modified part for me when it is too far beyond my current skills. I'm sure that the challenge of switching keys must be an excellent mind workout. It has taken me two years to start feeling comfortable changing within a piece. One thing that really helps me is that I record my teacher playing each new piece. My Zoom recorder allows me to slow the playback down as far as 50%. When I get home from my lesson, I listen to the recorder playing the piece slowly and just follow along looking at the sheet music several times. This gets the tune in my head and helps me when I need to self-correct a note or pitch.
My goal is first to really enjoy learning and eventually be able to play so my cat doesn't screech at the high notes! I am not Chinese, but my nephew's son is learning Mandarin (2nd grader) This morning I did a little presentation for his class. We compared the erhu to a violin. I played several tunes that the children learned in Chinese (London Bridges and Where Is Thumpkin)so they could sing along. I demonstrated some unique sounds of the erhu: slides, the horse neighing downward trill, the galloping bouncing bow and pizzacatto clopping. Then I played part of one of the horseracing piece (fairly slowly and with errors). They loved it!
Learning a new instrument always has it's ups and downs. What is really important as others have mentioned is to practice even a little on a daily basis. Enjoy, Penny! I wish you success. I look forward to hearing more about your progress on this board. Marilyn
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Post by edcat7 on May 2, 2014 0:30:12 GMT
I've always recorded my erhu teacher along with a metronome and have found it a great help. But my classical guitar teacher politely refuses me to record her since she says she wants me to learn how to sight read. I think both have their merits. I'm hoping a formal classical guitar training and study of music theory will also eventually help with my erhu timing (and liuqin study).
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 2, 2014 7:25:22 GMT
Hi, Thank you all for taking time to respond and giving me all those kind words and encouragement. Yes you guys have said all those things that I have experienced so far except for Ed's "Aging process for Asian lady". I have not reached to that size yet, haha!
When i first started practising erhu, I had to close the door and windows of my apartment to avoid disturbing my neighbours as I lived in an apartment. The initial sound was so horrible that I was put off myself let alone others. I told my teacher and he said that the new erhu will sound better in time to come. He advised me to muffle the sound by putting a pencil between the strings and the box to solve the problem.
I must say I am a diligent student practising daily for 45 - 60 mins each time despite of my full time job. As David has said, short duration of practice is better. At times when I am not in the mood I will stop practising even if is only 10 mins into the practice. I too record my teacher's play and listen to it as much as possible to memorise the tune. My teacher is a kind man in his 70s and has different way of teaching adults and children according to him. At the beginning, in order to increase my interest in erhu music, he went online to search old Chinese songs which I can relate and sing. He will then use those music scores to teach me. It was interesting and encouraging to be able to follow the tune. Lately my teacher started me on a structured way of learning by following the syllabus. The lessons are getting more difficult as I am not able to play fast tunes like the 'Sai Ma'. I am glad I found this forum where I can learn more from others. I have even started reading older posts in this forum as far back as 2006. I hope I can play like Marilyn when I reach her age but of course she has an edge over me being a previous cello player.
Thanks once again Penny
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 3, 2014 14:17:36 GMT
Thanks billdsmall, You must have good lungs to be able to play the xioa. I use my fingers alot as my work requires me to type. Working on the computer for 7 hours and practise erhu for about 45-60 mins daily resulted in stiff shoulders in the initial period. It is better now as I don't push myself too much nowadays. You guys are right, I must enjoy the music and not to focus on the goal of playing well.
Penny
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Post by davidmdahl on May 3, 2014 18:16:40 GMT
<snip> You guys are right, I must enjoy the music and not to focus on the goal of playing well. Penny I really did not mean to say that playing well is not a worthy goal. I get many questions about how long it takes to learn to master the erhu, or even a specific tune, and unfortunately this is an almost impossible question to answer. Some people who have a gift for music and practice efficiently and effectively, can accomplish wonderful things in a few years. Other people, for whatever reason, never learn to play musically. Some physical coordination is very easy for young people, and much more challenging for those of use who are, um, more mature. This is not to say though that learning music is only for the young. We may take longer to reach our goals, but it really doesn't matter as long as we are enjoying the journey. So, go ahead and work toward your goal of playing well, but just don't get discouraged if it does not happen as soon as you think it should. Keep up the good work on a daily basis, and in time the music will come. Best wishes, David
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Post by edcat7 on May 3, 2014 19:42:42 GMT
Thanks billdsmall, You must have good lungs to be able to play the xioa. I use my fingers alot as my work requires me to type. Working on the computer for 7 hours and practise erhu for about 45-60 mins daily resulted in stiff shoulders in the initial period. It is better now as I don't push myself too much nowadays. You guys are right, I must enjoy the music and not to focus on the goal of playing well. Penny There's a guy who when he first came on the forum complained of a stiff left shoulder. I saw him play a couple of years ago and he was very tense and his bowing was very tense. Try and get the bowing right first before you concentrate on your left hand techniques. I know it's boring, but necessary. When I'm on a new piece of music I tend to bow short irregular strokes. But when I've got the basic tune then I try to bow smooth long strokes. Tell your teacher that you're getting stiff shoulders. Ed
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 3, 2014 23:59:45 GMT
Thanks Ed and David for the advice . My teacher once commented that my bowing is like frying vegetables, it is so funny! I tend to subconsciously lift my bow away from the box when I am concentrating so much on my left hand. The other setback is I rely too much on the markings which my teacher has done for me. I tried once to remove those markings and ended up putting all back as I was totally lost without those markings. My teacher tells me that eventualy I have to do without them but I don't know how long it will take for me to memorise the different positions.
He also encouraged me to sit for the exam at year end for grade 3 but I told him I do not want any stress and moreover the cert does not serve any purpose for me. His reasoning is to gauge how far I have accomplished by taking the exam and there is also a sense of achievement. Does one have to possess a cert before you can classify yourself as whatever grade?. I wolud like to know if it is advisable to sit for the exam. Appreciate any comments.
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Post by edcat7 on May 4, 2014 1:01:38 GMT
If you're lifting the bow away whilst you're concentrating on your left hand then you're perhaps running before you can walk. I spent about three months doing nothing with the left hand and just practised bowing. Luckily I'm also learning the dizi too and so only spent 5 minutes in the lesson just bowing. I would have been bored rigid if I had spent three months just bowing.
I would love to sit erhu exams but unfortunately they aren't available in the UK. I would like at some point to teach the dizi and erhu and some sort of official certificate would be beneficial. Also going through the certificates seems to make the lessons more structured, since to me anyway sometimes my lessons seem unstructured. My teacher's view is (which I don't agree with) why learn so many tunes if all you will eventually play is 5 or 6 tunes. Better learn the major tunes well instead.
However I have no interest in taking formal classical guitar exams, at least not for the lower grades. And getting grade 5 music theory is just to make crossing other musical styles more easier.
I've put a couple of stickers as markers, which my teacher discouraged since he wants me to play by ear. After a while, at least whilst you still on the same key you'll find you'll rely on them less and less.
Ed
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 4, 2014 10:01:16 GMT
Yes I agree if you intend to teach then the cert is important. If one has been taught syllabus up to grade 6 without sitting for exam, can that person claim to have grade 6 erhu qualification? I am just curious.
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Post by davidmdahl on May 5, 2014 15:28:35 GMT
Yes I agree if you intend to teach then the cert is important. If one has been taught syllabus up to grade 6 without sitting for exam, can that person claim to have grade 6 erhu qualification? I am just curious. It is necessary to pass the exam to claim the qualification. Just knowing the material is not enough. You also need to play it up to the standard under pressure, which is not the same as playing at home. Best wishes, David
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 6, 2014 5:37:17 GMT
Thanks David,
I suppose you are right as there are people in their 80s still trying to get a degree not for employment but self actualisation in Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Will think about it when the time comes. Right now, I want to learn the proper techniques rather than just 2 tunes for the exam (I was told you only need to play 2 tunes well in order to sit for the exam). Penny
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Post by kaze on May 8, 2014 3:32:05 GMT
60, still young, though a little older than me. I studied erhu without any teacher. It is difficult to make exact pitch for these ages, so I make a soft called 二胡観音(for Windows and android). I use it to tune the strings and pitch practice.
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 8, 2014 8:24:01 GMT
You must have music background to achieve that, well done! I read your post on 二胡観音 and still trying to figure out how to go about doing that. Do I need to download the software or what?
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Post by kaze on May 9, 2014 3:49:30 GMT
Download www.softist.com/software/guanyin/erhuguanyin.zip and extract the compressed file ErhuGuanyin.exe and put it on the desktop of your PC. Just double-click the icon to run it. There are a lot of functions in 二胡観音, but you can use it without any setting, make sure that the microphone works. At first, it was just an open-string tuner. But users use it for interval practice unexpectedly, so I make a lot improvements to the software in order to meet the needs.
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 9, 2014 13:25:23 GMT
Thank you Kaze but I am just not able to understand how it works. I will be happy to leave it to my teacher to tune the erhu for me. Today I removed the markings for G chord and managed to play a tune but not excellent with the sound. Next week my teacher is starting me on C chord so I will need to have new markings.
I tried playing without the markings and the results were rather discouraging. Am thinking of taking a couple of months break to recharge my interest but am afraid that I will totally forget everything that I have learned. Suppose this is part and parcel of learning.
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Post by edcat7 on May 9, 2014 23:17:39 GMT
Strange that your teacher is showing you so many different keys so soon. Part of learning the erhu is developing your ear so you don't have to rely on those markings.
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Post by kaze on May 12, 2014 3:43:01 GMT
Undoubtedly, key of C is difficult for beginners.
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 12, 2014 8:48:56 GMT
Yes, I agree with you, Kaze. I had a go at C chord at the very beginning because I wanted to learn the tune "Butterfly lovers". My teacher told me that is grade 11 piece of work ! I told him my main aim of learning erhu is because I like that piece very much and wanted to learn how to play. BTW I use "Butterfly lovers" for my mobile ringtone. He started me with the very basics and then taught me first few lines of "Butterfly lovers". That's enough to spur me on.....
I think how the student performs depends very much on himself/herself. The teacher can only do so much, all the hard work has to come from the student. If the student is musically inclined and young, he/she will go far. As for myself I am just contented to be able to play the tune for pleasure; to enjoy myself yet not too irritating to others. I know the learning road will be long but I beleive there will be a sense of achievement the day when I am able to play that tune. Perhaps I will be 70 then and I can start a new post "Playing Butterfly lovers at age 70", haha ! Have a nice day!
Penny
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Post by davidmdahl on May 12, 2014 17:20:29 GMT
Many if not most tunes for the erhu are indicated in D, G, or F. There are also a few in C and Bb. I do recommend for a beginner to stick with D until that is comfortable, and then learn some tunes in G. During this time try to get away from using any reference markings on the erhu for fingers. It does not take long before you can rely on your ear and muscle memory in your fingers. Practice making the switch between playing in D and G. I like to play tunes such as Jasmine Flower (Mo Li Hua) in both keys. It is a good exercise, and practical too. If you are in an ensemble, sometimes you need to be able to play in whatever key the guzheng is tuned to.
After you get familiar with a few keys, and accustomed to switching from one to the other, you will find that there are not really 'difficult' keys, just those that are infamiliar. It also depends on the tune. I find Purple Bamboo to be easy in D, but more awkward in G.
If you are playing by yourself, you can play a tune in any key you want. Sometimes the setting of the tune will make it lay more comfortably in one key than another, so you may need to experiment.
Penny, there should be arrangements available of Butterfly Lovers that you can play in a comfortable key. You don't need to play the grade 11 version. I am pretty sure that I played a simplified arrangement of the themes early in my study of erhu. If your teacher does not have one that is at the right level for you, there should be something online on one of the jianpu score sites.
Best wishes,
David
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penny
Intermediate
Posts: 34
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Post by penny on May 12, 2014 22:35:01 GMT
Thanks David for your advice. Do you have "Butterfly lovers" jianpu in G or D chords? I can't find any.
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