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Post by svvin on Jan 19, 2014 15:38:15 GMT
Hello! I found two popular brands of pipas sold online (of course - where else you can get them if you don't live in Asia?). One is Xinghai and another is Dunhuang. There are various grades of instruments offered by both makers and both brands offer an average middle of the road 'Professional' grade pipa at around $500 USD. Dunhuang is said to have 'black buffalo horn pegs and frets' while similarly priced Xinghai that is a little cheaper comes with rosewood pegs and the ledges are also rosewood with (bone?) inserts. What is you opinion on these brands and on construction details? Since probably the Dunhuang is of a more traditional construction for the higher grade pipa I'm attaching the picture of the head of the Xinghai for you to judge. Please provide your opinion about which of the two is better value.
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 19, 2014 19:46:57 GMT
I might be slightly biased, but ill go for a beijing pipa. the quality of the workmanship is more in keeping with the times and the sound quality is much better.
For many years, (and industry insiders know this) the shanghai music factories (dunhuang etc. al.) have been having trouble making good pipas. there are frequent competitions for instrument making in China (i know, its very much a matter of perspective really), but the Shanghai factories always seems to come out tops for guzheng making and not so well in terms of pipa. I have never really tried the xinghai (guangdong) brand of pipa, but it looks quite promising from the picture. There are occasionally good shanghai pipas, but they are few and far between... one would have to really physically do the choosing.
But honestly, the best way to choose a pipa is to hear its sound and touch and feel it...but I think the better value would be to look for a beijing one (even if it might cost a little more). It might be worth to invest in one if you intend to play for the long term.
Sam
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Post by sutong on Jan 19, 2014 20:12:07 GMT
Hi,
I'm regretting going for a Shanghai Dunhuang pipa. Mine is just very average and dull. The bass notes are really no good.
The wood soundboard always seems to be the most important criterion for me in classical guitar: a AAA+ sound double top sound board sounds really different from a pretty decorated guitar with terrible wood.
I guess the same for pipa. I just saw a $2k Xingha pipa on Eason website - that one is probably a good one!
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Post by edcat7 on Jan 19, 2014 22:07:37 GMT
I know nothing about pipas but I bought one on behalf of a friend of mine. If you look at the amount of work that goes into one and the quality of the wood, then $500 isn't really that much for one.
My friend had done his research but eventually got the $785 Xinghai one from RMS. He loves it to bits. Of course I expect the $2000 Xinghai from Eason to be even better
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Post by svvin on Jan 20, 2014 15:31:08 GMT
From your replies I get an idea that either one at around $600 will be of approx the same quality. Correct? It would be a big surprise if one maker offered a $600 pipa that sounded twice as good as the other one at the same price. People everywhere including China (and maybe even more over there) know how to count money.
So, if I get one from the SoundOfAsia (Dunhuang) in that particular case will it be at least an authentic Dunhuang, not fake instrument?
Also, SoundOfAsia offers two closely priced pipas in my price range: a 'Professional' at $450 and a 'Concert' at $599. Does it make sence to pay $150 more for the 'Concert'?
Not sure what 'Concert' means though since you can get a $1500 pipa as well...
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Post by sutong on Jan 20, 2014 16:12:56 GMT
Not sure.
I read my reply and Sam and Edcat's and thought that we were all saying the Xin Hai is the better maker or that their pipas were excellent for price and quality rather than just okay.
Shanghai Dunhuang beginner ones like my Yun with horn frets are okay. If you get one from SoundofAsia, the Concert model makes sense. You get a better tonewood and hopefully balanced sound across the octave range. If you are looking at the 561 then that is the same average model I have. The camelbone one or cambodian rosewood is much better for tone.
Concert grade seems to mean that you can play solo with it and not be embarrassed by the pipa. It will be sufficiently loud. Professional grade means you can play it in an ensemble of orchestra and nobody notices you are slightly out of tune.
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Post by svvin on Jan 20, 2014 16:25:39 GMT
Not sure. I read my reply and Sam and Edcat's and thought that we were all saying the Xin Hai is the better maker or that their pipas were excellent for price and quality rather than just okay. Shanghai Dunhuang beginner ones like my Yun with horn frets are okay. If you get one from SoundofAsia, the Concert model makes sense. You get a better tonewood and hopefully balanced sound across the octave range. If you are looking at the 561 then that is the same average model I have. The camelbone one or cambodian rosewood is much better for tone. Concert grade seems to mean that you can play solo with it and not be embarrassed by the pipa. It will be sufficiently loud. Professional grade means you can play it in an ensemble of orchestra and nobody notices you are slightly out of tune. I mean earlier you said that a $2K Xinghai from Eason (and probably elsewhere) should be a good one but you didn't say anything about a $500 Xinghai. Do you think if you got a Xinghai priced similarly to your Dunhuang that you don't like you would like the former better? Can you see my point? By the way, I just checked: The Professional model number is 561M and the Concert is 561 MB, with B being probably for 'bone'. It looks like there is not much difference between these two except for some fret and peg materials used. Right? So, Concert in this particular case probably refers to looks not the sound. Makes sence?
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 20, 2014 17:44:12 GMT
When you see labels as "Professional", "Concert", "Maestro", and the like applied to Chinese instruments, keep in mind that these are marketing categories only useful for comparing instruments from the same vendor. From what I have seen, a "Professional" instrument is likely to be adequate, but probably not up to the quality preferred by an actual professional. Of course, this depends a lot on the vendor. Sometimes the labels are reasonable.
Some years ago, I bought a very fine used pipa from Eason Music with the idea of plunking around with it one my own. I quickly found out that the pipa is not an easy instrument to learn without a teacher. Then, I injured my left shoulder in a motorscooter accident, and even holding the pipa was challenging. I eventually sold my pipa and it wound up with a serious pipa student who is playing it well. Now we have a pipa teacher in town. Well after I had sold my pipa, our pipa master tested it and was very surprised at the quality. She seemed to prefer it to her own instrument. She could not believe that I had sold that wonderful pipa! Well, I can be glad that my old pipa has a good home.
If someone wanted my help to get another good pipa, I would suggest contacting Sung Wah at Eason. I bet he could arrange for a pipa player to help make a good choice from among his stock. That is much more likely to provide good results than simply taking the next one off the pile.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by sutong on Jan 20, 2014 18:45:38 GMT
Not sure. I read my reply and Sam and Edcat's and thought that we were all saying the Xin Hai is the better maker or that their pipas were excellent for price and quality rather than just okay. Shanghai Dunhuang beginner ones like my Yun with horn frets are okay. If you get one from SoundofAsia, the Concert model makes sense. You get a better tonewood and hopefully balanced sound across the octave range. If you are looking at the 561 then that is the same average model I have. The camelbone one or cambodian rosewood is much better for tone. Concert grade seems to mean that you can play solo with it and not be embarrassed by the pipa. It will be sufficiently loud. Professional grade means you can play it in an ensemble of orchestra and nobody notices you are slightly out of tune. I mean earlier you said that a $2K Xinghai from Eason (and probably elsewhere) should be a good one but you didn't say anything about a $500 Xinghai. Do you think if you got a Xinghai priced similarly to your Dunhuang that you don't like you would like the former better? Can you see my point? By the way, I just checked: The Professional model number is 561M and the Concert is 561 MB, with B being probably for 'bone'. It looks like there is not much difference between these two except for some fret and peg materials used. Right? So, Concert in this particular case probably refers to looks not the sound. Makes sence? Makes sense The best Shanghai Dunhuang I could find was less than $1500 from Eason Music. They have nothing above $2k like the Beijing Xin hai or other luthier made ones. A handmade luthier Xin hai is better than a factory Dunhuang. The $500 Xinghai (with calligraphic writing on the back) sounds about the same as my Shanghai 561. The 561MC (C=Collection?) Aged Rosewood would be much better than the MB or the 561M but probably not as nice as the Xinghai 8914. Maybe it's buyer's remorse. After 6 months, I can tell my Shanghai Dunhuang is just okay to play, and not great. If you are in Belgium or Europe, I'd sell my 561M cheap to save up to buy a Xinghai one instead
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Post by svvin on Jan 20, 2014 19:11:03 GMT
OK, got it.
However, like with any musical instrument there are mainly two concerns: a quality concern and... let's call it the quantity concern.
For instance, I have an arch-top guitar. It cost me $500 USD. For me I can't imagine I need a better instrument. I mean I don't play professionally and I'm fine with it. It's a Crafter Korean brand. Quality-wise it's excellent. You won't believe you can get such a nicely crafted instrument for $500. Quantity-wise someone said about it in an Internet review: "It's not a $2k Gibson but for the price you can't beat it". For me it's excelent quantity-wise either. I don't know why I would need a $2k Gibson. It sounds great for my needs.
I also have a Yamaha acoustic guitar and it's just great quality-wise: everything is perfect. It also sounds fine Quantity-wise for me. Someone will say that Martin sounds better but I don't really need Martin at triple the price compared to my Yamaha. Why? I also have blah-blah-blah - you get it. When I get a nice instrument I keep it.
So, speaking of these cheaper pipas (Dunhuang, Xinghai in the range below $600 and above $500) are they good enough quality-wise first? Are they well cut, sanded, polished, finished? Or are there any rough edges, file marks, scratches and dents, etc.?
Then, after the quality concern is satisfied, how bad are they compared to the higher end instruments quantity-wise? Are they 10% duller sounding, 20% duller sounding, or 50% duller sounding?
By the way I recently heard that Beijing made wood instruments (read Xinghai) are better in respect to one quality factor: they are more well dried than the Shanghai made pipas. It's said that the Shanghai (read Dunhuang) pipa will eventually have its soundboard warped or cracked when it finally releases the water trapped in it during the manufacturing process in the wet Shanghai climate. How true is that?
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 20, 2014 21:18:59 GMT
You can't compare dollars to dollars, or whatever currency is relevant, from one kind of instrument to another. We are living in a golden age for guitars. There are so many guitars being made at a very high quality, that it is possible to get a wonderful instrument at a relatively good price. I am sure that Dunhuang is churning out pipas too, but probably not nearly at the scope of guitars. There is also the question of access to the right woods for making a high quality pipa.
I have a dunhuang guzheng that is a truly wonderful instrument, so they certainly have that down. It is hard to know if the pipa is harder to make well in a large scale factory, or they just don't have the right engineering and craftsmanship to reach the top tier for pipa.
I am a fan of Man Rui Xing erhus, and have heard that his workshop's reputation for the pipa is even better. Could MRX be responsible in part for the good reputation of Beijing pipas?
Best wishes,
David
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Post by sutong on Jan 20, 2014 21:20:26 GMT
I just found this great shop site by one of the members on the forum here: www.orientalmusic.org/pipa.htmlYou can see the differences in the Beijing Yi Hai and Xin Hai pipas. This is the first time I see a shop grade the soundboard. At $500, you can get a G2 grade soundboard. This is really good because the cosmetics of the high end pipas are the same so they are easy to fake on tudou and alibaba. Xin hai pipas have a handwritten note and stamp underneath the neck of the headstock. Shanghai Dunhuang have a certificate label and a small stamp on the soundboard. Yi hai I see in Beijing but not tried. A Shanghai Dunhuang 561 pipa around $500 is not in the same league as an Eastwood guitar in manufacture. Large modern guitar and banjo companies use CAD and 3d machined parts which are assembled. These are mostly done using more simple process. The Xin hai pipas for $489 I see have buffed finish (natural wood) and the Shanghai Dunhuang at the same price have a dark varnish so you cannot see what is going on with the wood. The frets are glued; Shanghai Dunhuang ones, you can see big blob of glue along each of the 24 frets. They did not do a tidy job and just stuck the frets on without mopping up the glue. The horn finished xiang are also glued: you can see the joins from the side. The bridge is also not perfectly carved. It works okay. With your guitar, you have a very neat purling across the edge where soundboard meets the sides. The Dunhuang one is just painted dark, where the soundboard fits into the body of the pipa. There are rough paint overlays; no scratches or dents unless damaged in shop or movement in post. I see nicer banjos by Goodtime for $500 than I do pipa! I don't know about dulling. My Shanghai Dunhuang is really good in the middle range. The high range is really annoying. The bass range is really weak. I asked another pipa player here about the ADEA tuning, because my pipa cannot stand even a lower pitch to GDEA. Maybe overall my Shanghai Dunhuang is just not balanced. I can tell because I play classical guitar and I hope I know how the sound transitioning is from bass to treble across the strings. Hope this helps you make a descision. Listen to the sound quality and hear the difference in the sound tracks in the shop site.
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 20, 2014 23:36:57 GMT
Hi all, Wow this discussion has become super intense in a matter of hours! Lets just say that every pipa has its own 'life' and pipa picking is really an art. Here's a picture of my teacher, zhang qiang and I when i was much younger and in the central conservatory actually choosing pipas. (i read from some of the previous posts that some of you like his Tian E [Swan], I'll let him know when i see him...p/s i was really geeky then!) The process takes hours, and we debate, deliberate and fuss over small things such as wood grain quality, sound texture, etc etc. Pipa choosing is really an art, and if you can, get a pipa teacher to choose a pipa for you. One has to take into account finger size, hand span, temperament of the pipa and the pipa player, texture and sound, type of repertoire and even aesthetics. In the professional realm, we generally conclude that: 1. Real Man Ruixing pipas (if you can get hold of one really made by him, he's about 80 now and probably doesn't make pipas anymore, he gets his assistants to make them and passes them off as his own sometimes) are the best so far in terms of quality and workmanship. Everyone in the conservatory has at least 1-2 man rui xing pipas. Its like the stradivari of pipas. But the pipa player would require a certain degree training force and standard before being able to handle an instrument like that. Most beginners would find it difficult to play an instrument like this - the control required for the sound to be effected on pipas like this takes quite a number of years of training. 2. Chou Ting Yu pipas come a second. they are generally much easier to play and are recommended for beginners. 3. Other beijing pipa makers: Cao Weidong, Zhang Dan etc. 4. Shanghai pipas But the general rule is: there is no hard and fast rule. I have accidentally 'bumped' into really good pipas by unknown makers. Oftentimes, they are once-off occurrences. (i.e. the pipa maker accidentally makes a really good pipa, he probably doesn't know it himself sometimes, but never again). If you can't get a pipa teacher to choose an instrument for you, I find eason's store to be quite reputable in this department, and would recommend his online stuff. Sam
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Post by svvin on Jan 20, 2014 23:43:12 GMT
To be honest I'm more biased towards the Xinghai pipa myself. They look better made and I also noticed the thick varnish (is it actually poly?) on Dunhuang. It's just my personal unfortunate situation that I have my money (around $550 USD) relocated in such a way that I need to buy off the US eBay. The only one US pipa seller that I can see on eBay is Soundofasia and the only pipa brand they carry is Dunhuang. I could also buy a pipa from China but again from eBay (that's because my money is trapped at the buying assistant agent's account). I actually can use that agent to buy off the TaoBao also and I found a few good offers of the Xinghai pipas, namely model 8914 but until February, 6 all transactions are freezed by the agent because of the National holidays in China. I happen to be in a hastle because I just went through not so very pleasant relationships with the agent. Maybe I need to relax and wait until February, 6. I don't know. I feel I could regret getting Dunhuang instead of Xinghai later on so maybe I should rely on remains of my patience.
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Post by svvin on Jan 21, 2014 0:16:37 GMT
Sam, of course there are different pipa grades for different people. Your last post suggests that choosing the pipa the right way is probably close to a meditative practice. I see where it comes from. It's closely associated with the Eastern way of thinking which I belive is a special way compared to the Western tradition.
Drink a cup of tea, listen to the sound, think about the Sun and the Moon, listen more and so on. You can actually object by asking: if not all that and something else on top then why to get the pipa at all? And I would have to agree with you. Looking at the pipa players on YouTube (mostly women) I notice they are not simply playing the pipa like someone would play guitar, they are doing something sacred. The way they move their hands, their facial expression and everything else suggests that pipa playing is much more than simply plucking the strings. Something more than good technique either.
However, getting down to the Earth again I think this does not apply to cheaper mass produced pipas and when choosing a less expensive instrument we expect certain robustness and general quality present. Well, I remember reading a story about Stevie Ray Vaughan finding his famous strat in a pawn shop and immediately getting a feeling that it was his destiny guitar. It happens. Not with us I think, the mear European (or US) mortals who will never get the proper feel of playing the traditional Chinese instrument.
Oh eah, drink a shot of wiskey, strum that dreadnought and listen how it sounds, then drink some more. Not really but you probably see what I mean.
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Post by sutong on Jan 21, 2014 0:37:09 GMT
Hi all, Wow this discussion has become super intense in a matter of hours! Those photos are great Sam! You got in really early into conservatory! The Man Rui Xing are out of my budget. I think I saw one and the shop keeper wouldn't let me touch it. He said unless I can play Shi Mian Mi Fu, I can forget about that one and handed me a Shanghai Dunghuang beginner model which was warped. When I was in Suzhou, they seem to pride themselves in their pipas. I still thought the Xin hai was better for tone and texture. Problem with Xin hai for me, is the board is closer to the string depth. As a beginner, I find I hit the sound board so then I thought Shanghai Dunhuang was better for me and I bought the 561M. It has more room for fingers to move. Still, I wish I had chosen better. I did the best I could because I had no teacher. Now I regret it - only 6 months, and I realise it is only a temporary instrument for learning very basic. I can play the 561 without hitting soundboard now. It used to be a really big surprise for me to do this. Now it is no big deal and I notice its tone is not that good. I had a better 12 string guitar for the same cost :/ Thanks for showing us your exciting pipa life Sam! Have you released a solo album yet? [/quote]
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Post by sutong on Jan 21, 2014 0:48:34 GMT
What about the calligraphic Xin hai rosewood: www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Rosewood-Pipa-instrument-Chinese-Pipa-lute-guitar-with-case-/131092631348It is the competitor for the 561M (and better I think). The seller has 100% feedback, and the model is the Grade 2 soundboard. My friend tells me that the heavily the pipa, the more dense the wood and tight the grain (if horns/headstock are not massive heavily overdone). This one is 4kg. There are better Shanghai Dunghuang - my student one is not. Check out the 543 or 541 series. They have none of the cheap mass factory problems of mine. I wondered if mine was fake, but it has the real certificate and came from an authorised dealer. g
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Post by sutong on Jan 21, 2014 1:01:12 GMT
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 21, 2014 2:36:21 GMT
Svvin,
It's a pity your money is held up in eBay. Didn't realise that and therefore recommended you eason's pipas.
In that case, you're better of with the xinghai one I think.
Sutong, You can search for me on YouTube.
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Post by song on Jan 21, 2014 2:41:27 GMT
Slight majority would prefer the sound of Beijing pipa, even me. It is brighter sounding and less dull compared to Shanghai pipas. I have a customer though from USA who owns a Man Rui Xing pipa but finds it too bright for his liking and is now looking for a Shanghai pipa.
So choosing between a Beijing pipa and Shanghai pipa is quite subjective. If you need help in choosing one feel free to contact us. We can record a short video clip for you to listen to the tone of the exact instrument you are getting before you make a decision.
We are not a drop shipper or middle man. We have a shop with ready stocks with music instructors teaching at our premises so we can do that.
SW
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Post by svvin on Jan 21, 2014 10:29:43 GMT
What about the calligraphic Xin hai rosewood: www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Rosewood-Pipa-instrument-Chinese-Pipa-lute-guitar-with-case-/131092631348It is the competitor for the 561M (and better I think). The seller has 100% feedback, and the model is the Grade 2 soundboard. My friend tells me that the heavily the pipa, the more dense the wood and tight the grain (if horns/headstock are not massive heavily overdone). This one is 4kg. There are better Shanghai Dunghuang - my student one is not. Check out the 543 or 541 series. They have none of the cheap mass factory problems of mine. I wondered if mine was fake, but it has the real certificate and came from an authorised dealer. g Yes, I saw that one on eBay. I suspect that's the eBay store of Redmusicshop? My first picture in this thread is actually from that eBay listing :-) They have somewhat higher prices on eBay for the same pipa models compared to their standalone online store. That probably accounts for eBay fees.
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Post by svvin on Jan 21, 2014 10:34:33 GMT
Svvin, It's a pity your money is held up in eBay. Didn't realise that and therefore recommended you eason's pipas. In that case, you're better of with the xinghai one I think. Sutong, You can search for me on YouTube. Sam, yes - I think I'm going to get the Xinghai. Actually there are many offers on TaoBao but I have to be careful not to get a fake. My money is not actually on eBay, it's a separate agent that mostly works with eBay and other online shops of their choice but they also have a huge catalog of TaoBao goods. I saw pages and pages of pipas there.
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Post by edcat7 on Jan 21, 2014 10:49:52 GMT
It seems you're more experienced with these Taobao agents: whilst I'm happy with a xun I got from there, I would never trust spending too much money.
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Post by svvin on Jan 21, 2014 13:32:04 GMT
It seems you're more experienced with these Taobao agents: whilst I'm happy with a xun I got from there, I would never trust spending too much money. Actually I have no TaoBao experience at all! I was simply trying to find my way out of the complicated situation I got into with that agent so I was considering every possible solution including TaoBao. So, TaoBao is for the lucky ones or... stupid ones? In this country however we have a saying that 'the lucky ones are either stupid or otherwise heavy drinkers' :-) (not much sence but it sometimes works)
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Post by sutong on Jan 22, 2014 13:15:31 GMT
Slight majority would prefer the sound of Beijing pipa, even me. It is brighter sounding and less dull compared to Shanghai pipas. I have a customer though from USA who owns a Man Rui Xing pipa but finds it too bright for his liking and is now looking for a Shanghai pipa. So choosing between a Beijing pipa and Shanghai pipa is quite subjective. If you need help in choosing one feel free to contact us. We can record a short video clip for you to listen to the tone of the exact instrument you are getting before you make a decision. We are not a drop shipper or middle man. We have a shop with ready stocks with music instructors teaching at our premises so we can do that. SW Thats good to know. I'●d love to hear side by side comparisons of the Man rui xing with the affordable ones (not that I could justify buying a MRX at my level yet) using the recording piece, mic and player to get a glimpse. Ideally with Sam playing! Svin - looks like that is the same Redmusicshop link. Maybe they have gone ebay and tudou for bigger market.
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