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Post by sutong on Jan 11, 2014 22:03:58 GMT
Sutong, you broke three strings?! I'm sorry to hear that happened. When I was referring to jianpu, it was for the Key of a song and in reading the way jianpu is formatted for any particular song. It looks like this: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/AmazingGraceNumberedMusicalNotation.pngI didn't mean the pipa strings themselves. The pipa is fully chromatic which means that it can play in all the different Keys (for example Key of A, Key of G, Key of F) in its standard tuning, for any particular song. The standard tuning for pipa strings is "A D E A" from the thickest to thinnest string. You don't need to change the pipa tuning for each different song you play. I've very sorry for the mix up it caused you. I guess I learnt not to retune that high again! How would I tune the pipa for the key of G or C then?
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Post by thebamboogrove on Jan 11, 2014 22:33:08 GMT
We still need a few zhongruan, yangqin sanxian performers, and guzheng too!
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Post by sanmenxia on Jan 12, 2014 21:49:19 GMT
Sutong, you broke three strings?! I'm sorry to hear that happened. When I was referring to jianpu, it was for the Key of a song and in reading the way jianpu is formatted for any particular song. It looks like this: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/AmazingGraceNumberedMusicalNotation.pngI didn't mean the pipa strings themselves. The pipa is fully chromatic which means that it can play in all the different Keys (for example Key of A, Key of G, Key of F) in its standard tuning, for any particular song. The standard tuning for pipa strings is "A D E A" from the thickest to thinnest string. You don't need to change the pipa tuning for each different song you play. I've very sorry for the mix up it caused you. I guess I learnt not to retune that high again! How would I tune the pipa for the key of G or C then? The strings stay the same pitches: A D E A, but their notes (actually scale degrees) change when you play in a different key. For example in D the strings are 5 1 2 5, in G they're 2 5 6 2 etc.
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Post by joepip on Jan 12, 2014 23:03:30 GMT
Main message though is to tune your pipa strings to "A D E A" Sutong.
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 18, 2014 10:49:15 GMT
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Post by sutong on Jan 19, 2014 0:51:13 GMT
Oh no! That means, I have to transpose each time I change key?
How do you remember all of the key change fingering positions without getting confused? I can only play in the key of D without change of string pitch.
Is this normal for pipa players to learn different numbers of jian pu for each pitch? As soon as I start trying to think of position 5 as 2, I get get confused and have to start counting frets to relearn. It will forever no?
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 19, 2014 19:37:10 GMT
Hi Sutong,
Chinese music (or cipher notation [Jian pu]) uses this system called a movable do system (as opposed to a fixed doh system). Im not sure if you study music, but this means that the 'doh' or '1' note changes with the key. This also means that you don't need to think of the position '5' as '2'. '2' in the key of D will also be '2' in the key of G and so on. It means that the fingering for D, E, F, G, A, B flat and C all use 1=doh 2=re 3=mi and so on. Pipa players don't need to transpose. (if you were a flute player it might be a bit different, but we are talking about the pipa here anyway).
If i had a fingering chart to show you, the fingering pattern is the same in the key of D and any other key. You just need to shift the hand position to the required fret.
The hand position always stays the same, the notes might differ, but the pattern of pressing would be the same. Do you have a teacher? He/she would have to show you the basic fingering pattern that would be how you press the scale for the pipa. '1' would be on the second string, third finger. '2' would be on the first string forefinger of the left hand, '3' would be on the first string middle finger, and so on. Such a scalar pattern is considered 'traditional fingering', which is usually used for all traditional pieces (pieces before 1950). Once you know the pattern, key changes are easy!
It only starts getting much more complex with the pieces composed after 1950s
Let me know if you have problems, and maybe i can show you via skype or something?
Sam
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Post by sutong on Jan 19, 2014 20:40:35 GMT
Thanks Sam -
I get mental block just thinking about jian pu. It will take me a week to try and understand the sentence. Classical clef music I can read a few lines. I understand A D E A better than 2, 5,6, 2.
If the hand position stays the same, then that is not so terrible. I will continue with pipa then. If the hand positions need to move and 2 replacing 5 for different keys, I would give up straight away. Pipa is a new effort for me so in 3 months, I've been watching youtube to teach myself right hand fingering techniques mostly. With about 5 different video tutorials, I understand the fingering home positions for 1st ban, 2nd ban and 3rd ban. But my learning is no good since I can only play by ear, and not by reading jian pu.
Are you in Europe too? That would be great to have someone show me. No matter how hard I try I cannot seem to get much better on my own.
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Post by sutong on Jan 20, 2014 0:24:30 GMT
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Post by edcat7 on Jan 20, 2014 0:47:37 GMT
Those types of books are excellent: I've got one for the hulusi and one for the erhu. I also had one put together for me for the xun, since there are no xun cd books available. These books are aimed at intermediate to advanced level. btw. If Sam has offered to help you via Skype I'd jump at the opportunity. I have to pay for my tuition and it never ceases to amaze me when others turn down my offer of help.
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 20, 2014 2:27:05 GMT
Jianpu is very much worthwhile learning for playing Chinese music on Chinese instruments. Once it clicks, transposing is very easy, or at least much easier than when using staff notation. Don't try to get it all at once though. I don't know what key is usual to start with on pipa, but maybe D or G. Start with one key and get very comfortable with it before moving on to the next. When you are comfortable with the second key, be sure to go back to the first key you learned to make sure you still have it. Your mind will get used to switching keys, and the next keys you learn will be much easier.
Whenever you are feeling overwhelmed, simplify and reduce the number of things that you are working on. This is something that a teacher will do for you, assigning the right things to learn at the right time.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by thebamboogrove on Jan 20, 2014 2:37:48 GMT
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Post by sutong on Jan 21, 2014 0:54:19 GMT
Thanks -
How do you tune 1.. 5.. 6.. 2. in the Key of G?
This reads:
1562 . . . . . . .
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 21, 2014 2:01:12 GMT
Thanks - How do you tune 1.. 5.. 6.. 2. in the Key of G? This reads: 1562 . . . . . . . The diatonic scale in the key of G is, G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G' The numbers in jianpu notation indicate the scale degree, so 1=G, 2=A, 3=B, 4=C, 5=D, 6=E, 7=F# 1 5 6 2 = G D E A I tuned my pipa to A D E A (from low to high) or in G, that would make the open strings 2 5 6 2. It is my understanding that this is the most common tuning. Best wishes, David
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Post by song on Jan 21, 2014 2:21:19 GMT
Samuel has got to be the most influential Pipa player outside of China. He has vast knowledge of the Pipa in terms of technique, repertoire, instrument and history. He has published a book in English about the Pipa (Can't remember the name) and is the author of 'QI' - An Instrumental Guide to the Chinese Orchestra. www.eason.com.sg/products/books/mb3.jspSo when he says he'll show via skype, you drop everything you are doing and wait by your laptop...... Welcome to the forum Samuel! There are a few Singaporeans that we know well here. See if you can spot them. Some use their real name, some don't.... Sung Wah
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 21, 2014 3:51:15 GMT
Samuel has got to be the most influential Pipa player outside of China. He has vast knowledge of the Pipa in terms of technique, repertoire, instrument and history. He has published a book in English about the Pipa (Can't remember the name) and is the author of 'QI' - An Instrumental Guide to the Chinese Orchestra. www.eason.com.sg/products/books/mb3.jspSo when he says he'll show via skype, you drop everything you are doing and wait by your laptop...... Welcome to the forum Samuel! There are a few Singaporeans that we know well here. See if you can spot them. Some use their real name, some don't.... Sung Wah That's why the name was familiar! I have Samuel's book "Impressions of a pipa player" that I ordered from Singapore several years ago. The author's name on the cover is Samuel Wong Shengmiao. I highly recommend it for students of Chinese music, and doubly so for pipa players. Best wishes, David
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 21, 2014 4:15:53 GMT
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 21, 2014 6:05:11 GMT
I ordered my copy of Impressions from Select Books in Singapore. The shipping cost was high, but the total was still less than if I ordered from Amazon.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by joepip on Jan 22, 2014 1:55:03 GMT
I would definitely be interested in the pipa book (the one authored in English). Samuel, is that book still on the market?
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 22, 2014 6:37:39 GMT
I believe so. It should be available on the above mentioned site with select books.
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Post by joepip on Jan 23, 2014 4:59:16 GMT
Just purchased it. I used the Select Books site. Though they tagged on a pricy delivery fee, it nonetheless seems like a seminal piece as far as writings about the history/performance/technique etc. of the pipa in English, of which there are very few. I managed to find one specifically on the pipa in my old school's music library -'The Way of the Pipa: Structure and Imagery in Chinese Lute Music' and I'm sure I'll enjoy reading your book Samuel. Thank you for taking the time and effort to write it.
I'll have to listen to my Jiang Ting Pipa in Concert cd while I read haha.
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 23, 2014 8:46:42 GMT
I read the John Myers book "The Way of the Pipa" about ten years ago. I don't remember that much about it, but I think it was more about the history and music of the pipa than Sam's book. "Impressions of a pipa player" is more of a memoir interspersed with accounts of great or significant pipa teachers, composers, and players. For me at least, Impressions is a lot more fun and useful, since there is so much information and wisdom on learning to play the pipa. I think that it should be interesting and useful to those of us who don't play pipa, since much of the good sense is applicable for learning music and technique on other instruments. I found the focus on people in the pipa world and the joy of making music on the pipa to be much more interesting than a history of the pipa or technical analysis of a pipa tune.
Another book that appealed to me in a similar way was "Lives in Chinese Music". This book does not have so much good advice for learning Chinese instruments and music, but the biographies of the musicians was mostly fascinating.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by joepip on Jan 24, 2014 0:22:43 GMT
Sounds great to me. Thanks for your thoughts David. And while I did find some of Myers historical accounts of the instrument interesting, much of the more technical jargon flew right over my head.
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Post by samuelwong on Jan 24, 2014 2:01:18 GMT
Hope you enjoy the book. Here is a review from the Journal of Ethnomusicology sometime long ago (i can't remember, 2005 maybe?): www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20174386?uid=3738992&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103324531677Honestly, i wrote that book while i was still a teenager - I'm not exactly happy with it, but I'm glad its of use somehow. I had so much energy then, and wanted to share my pipa knowledge and that of many friends and teachers in as quick a way as possible. As a result, i think it was an honest piece of work, but lacked academic rigour. Its stored in libraries and used as a reference book in some of the university courses on Chinese music. John Myer's book was in great consultation with the late pipa player, Lin Shicheng. However, its important to note that most of the techniques and pieces in his book are not really used in pipa playing today anymore. There has been a great amount of progress in the realm of pipa playing, in fact, my book may be slightly outdated already! Sam
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Post by davidmdahl on Jan 24, 2014 17:20:44 GMT
The teenager who wrote the "Impressions.." book was pretty remarkable. I appreciate the non-academic style. Your enthusiasm for the pipa, music, and luminaries came through loud and clear. There is a lot of good sense and wisdom in the book about practicing and learning to play a challenging instrument. You must be an amazing teacher.
It is fun that John Myers, author of the other book on the pipa in English, was the reviewer in the JSTOR article that you cited. I look forward to reading the entire review.
Best wishes,
David
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