[Explanation of scales, et cetera]

[Si]

was wondering how common is the standard scale and which of the other scales are also common.

Is there some list of which piece in which scale?

[SCWGuqin]

Scale...mode...tuning = CONFUSION. Qin music is very unsystematic in this area, at least as regards formal theory. Most of the time various sources use different terminology and approaches in formalizing the melodic properties of qin pieces. Your question, or at least the intent behind it, has to be addressed step-by-step.

1. Scale. A scale consists of a sequence of intervals between pitches, pure and simple. In most Eurasian musical systems, pitches are separated by small numbers of semitones, also called half-steps. A semitone is the difference between any two adjacent pitches on the piano console. The "anhemitonic pentatonic" scale consists of the infinite chain ...322323223232232..., where 2 = 2 half-steps = 1 whole step, and 3 = 3 half-steps. You can start anywhere in this chain as your "base note" and the sequence of intervals is the same. Over 90% of qin music is straight anhemitonic pentatonic. There are several ways in which qin melodies depart from the anhemitonic pentatonic scale, but that's better left for separate treatment.

2. Mode. A term of much confusion, used with different nuance in many systems. Most generally, a mode is "more than a scale and less than a melody"--it consists of a scale or combination of scales with rules for how to combine notes in certain ways. That's why, for instance, in Indian music you can spin dozens of modes (ragas) out of a single scale. A common way of conceptualizing mode in qin music starts from base note or tonic--the "pitch of resolution" whose gravity shapes much of a piece. Gong is the most common tonic, followed by yu, shang, and zhi. (Jiao is almost never used, for reasons I won't go into.) If you want I can talk more about gong/shang/jiao/zhi/yu and what it means to take each as a "resting pitch."

3. Tuning. This one's easy. You should have encountered a couple of tunes in non-standard tuning. But no matter how weird the tuning, most of the music played on it is still anhemitonic pentatonic and otherwise obeys qin melodic conventions.

I assume there's more to ask, and/or that I didn't really provide an answer.

[Si]

Oh very very interesting!

Is it just me that confuses scale and tuning? My initial question as about tunings and which are the most common etc.

So in qin is there no need to say this is in G or C major scale etc? In fact should I just forget thinking of scales.

So mode is unrelated to the tuning? - I sort of thought Rui bin and Lin Zhong and huang zhong were modes and tunings.

I know that CCC advices us to not be to concerned with all this technical stuff - but it does seem to be very interesting and mysterious to me.

Sort of feel that I am a bit closer to understanding the concept now.

I am also very interested in understanding gong, shang ect - is that the equiv. of C, D etc. Imagine the answer is a YES and a NO.

Hope i dont seem too much of a derrrr on this subject. I think I need a diagram to understand - im graphically minded see....

Thanks - i look forward to learning a bit more on this subject

[Si]

Ok I have re-read your post. And thought a bit more about it -see comments below.

1. Scales - Most qin music is in anhemitonic pentatonic .

(so I forget c,d and thoughts of many differnt scales etc as in western music)


2.Modes - The base (first) note forms start of each different mode. A mode is a pattern of notes in a certain order.

( so if i analysed a tune i would notice that due to its mode it would have a usual starting note, ending note, ending note for small groups of nodes in a phrase and standard intervals between some notes - sort of a framework.)

(as i have not analysed this i dont know how freely it is used in different tunes of the same mode - i can imagine that it would be very strictly followed for every tune)


3.Tuning - How you tune the qin.

(confused as to why mode and tuning names can be the same)

(can you play yan guan san die (for example) in standard tuning and if you did, whould that change the mode (as refered to in point 2)


wow this is interesting!

[SCWGuqin]

It's OK to think in terms of C, D, etc. but I don't recommend it since it's kind of "cheating" and you'll be better off using the Chinese terms. Here now is the explanation of gong/shang/jiao/zhi/yu.

Gong is considered the fundamental note. Since this isn't post-19th-century Western music, there's no absolute pitch. You can pick any frequency and declare it gong. So here's what our scale looks like:

GONG

The next note in the standard anhemitonic pentatonic scale is shang, and it's defined as 2 half-steps above gong. In other words, the same as the relation between C and D. The standard version of Meihua Sannong begins with a nice clear gong-shang-gong. So now our scale is

GONG
[ ]
SHANG

The [] indicates where another note "could" be in a standard 12-tone system. Like C, C#, D. Continuing to build the scale, we end up with:

GONG
[]
SHANG
[]
JIAO
[]
[]
ZHI
[]
YU
[]
[]
GONG
[]
SHANG etc.

So it's cyclic, and the five note-names just repeat indefinitely.

When I say that pieces are in "gong mode", "yu mode", etc., that means those notes are the most important in the piece and give it its main character. Note that some pieces don't fall into this classification--they may alternate between gong and yu, for instance, with neither gaining dominance over the other. Here are a couple famous pieces in each mode:

Gong: Liu Shui, Meihua Sannong, Wuye Wu Qiu Feng, Changmen Yuan, Guanshan Yue, Jiu Kuang, Liang Xiao Yin
Shang: Yu Ge, Qiao Ge, Qiu Sai Yin
Jiao: [none!]
Zhi: Yu Qiao Wen Da
Yu: Ping Sha Luo Yan, Oulu Wang Ji, Wu Ye Ti, Shen Ren Chang

I've avoided listing tunes outside of standard tuning, as that would just confuse things. But no matter what tuning a piece uses, it almost always falls into the same classification system. For instance, in Ruibin tuning, Xiao Xiang Shui Yun is yu mode, while Yu Lou Chun Xiao is gong mode. All the tuning changes is where the notes are physically on the instrument.

Singing or thinking through these pieces will help you understand what each mode "feels like". Gong is stereotypically happy, while Yu is negative. If you're really interested you can play around with note patterns and discover all the emotional effects by yourself.

Now you see why C, D, etc. are not so useful for qin music. Talking about "gong", "zhi" etc. tells you much more since those terms define notes in the anhemitonic pentatonic scale.

Some specific replies:

1. "(as i have not analysed this i dont know how freely it is used in different tunes of the same mode - i can imagine that it would be very strictly followed for every tune)"

Not really. One reason this stuff is so seldom talked about is that it's not a big part of the qin tradition on the conscious level, at least as far as I can see. The pieces (and meanings) come first, the analysis second. There's no real systematic internal structure shared by all pieces within gong mode or yu mode; qin music is basically unsystematic music, and this sets it apart from e.g. Indian music.

2. "(confused as to why mode and tuning names can be the same)"
Yeah, it's a pisser. There are complex historical reasons. Some of them are really frustrating owing to the fact that, while in standard tuning gong is 3rd string, ideologically gong is "supposed" to be 1st string. Hence you'll see things classified as "jiao mode" which are really gong mode, "zhi mode" which are really shang mode, etc. And let's not even bring up "huangzhong"...

3. "(can you play yan guan san die (for example) in standard tuning and if you did, whould that change the mode (as refered to in point 2)"

Tuning and mode are distinct, as discussed above. YGSD falls largely into yu mode, with telltale "hopeful" sections lingering on gong. But the *locations* of these notes are different on the instrument. In standard tuning, gong is 3rd string and yu is 2nd/7th string. But in Ruibin tuning, gong is 5th string and yu is 4th.

[Charlie Huang]

I might as well learn some of this whilst I'm here!

[Si]

I thought I would read Chris Evans section on these subjects to try to extend my knowledge, based on what you just said, but I had to give it up. Its way to complex for me. Overly too complex!

There should be a censored version for beginners and intermediates. I think I prefer your way of explaining it above.


(at one point Chris Evans mentions that there could be 60 modes ---------------heeeeeeeeeeeeepl my mind cant take it!!!....)

[SCWGuqin]

There are five base-notes in the anhemitonic pentatonic scale. (Gong, shang, jiao, zhi, yu) In 12-step octave systems, each step can serve as each of these notes. Hence 12 x 5 = 60 "pentatonic modes". Actually that way of looking at it is pretty useless, I think.

Don't worry about weird theory now except insofar as it helps your playing.

[holdencaufield]

SCWGuqin,

Your chart was very helpful. But following that basic pattern, what difference is there in those scales from Western pentatonic scales?