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Post by lbowen on Aug 9, 2012 4:59:43 GMT
Hi, I've been playing an F zhongdi for a few months, and I can understand the Western Scales, but my teacher says I have to learn Chinese Scales as well, but his English isn't great and I can't speak Mandarin very well, can anyone help me out and explain Chinese Scales? Thanks very much, everyone.
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 8:09:40 GMT
Please refer to the following article for an introduction of the "Chinese scales" via Jianpu: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JianpuTraditionally Chinese music is based on pentatonic scale, but that no longer holds. What your teacher is probably talking about is the difference in the notes, solfège, and numerical jianpu notation.
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Post by Flolei on Aug 9, 2012 8:28:20 GMT
Yes, Allen is right. It is difficult to say what your teacher means exactly. Does he mean you should train pentatnonic scales (I do it very often because the combinaison without 4 and 7 degrees is often in the pieces I play) or does he mean you should learn to read jianpu. That's the question.
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Post by lbowen on Aug 9, 2012 10:30:39 GMT
Thanks a lot everyone! Yes, I understand jianpu and solfège (a little : . But what my teacher said was that the image I attached, what looks to me like c5, could be played as a d, or an e or any note, depending on the scale that you're using. Attachments:
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 12:05:01 GMT
First, dizis have different pitches.
A qudi pitched in C has C5 at XXX000 That's treated as "Do" or "1"
A qudi pitched in C has G4 at XXXXXX That's treated as "low So" or "low 5"
However, whatever pitched dizi you're having where C5 is treated as XXXXXX That would still be regarded as "low So" or "low 5" even though it would be treated as "Do" or "1" on the C pitched Qudi.
So C5 could be treated as a "Do" or "So" depending on which pitch dizi you're playing.
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 12:06:55 GMT
More specifically, your teacher shouldn't say that c5 can be played as d or e; he should say that c5 can be played as "Do" or "So."
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 12:31:11 GMT
Finally, the reason that XXXXXX = C5 on a F dizi is because XXX000 = F Consult this shinobue scale page for details: homepage2.nifty.com/iwatake/scale/8hon.htmlA pitch of a dizi is determined by the absolute note at XXX000 The pitch of other flutes in the world (including the Japanese shinobue is determined by the note at XXXXXX Hope all this information doesn't confuse you.
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Post by lbowen on Aug 9, 2012 23:10:44 GMT
Thanks so much, Allen. Yes, I understand what you're saying.... but it seems my teacher was saying something different again!
In the jianpu that he showed me, almost every song was played in a different key - ie "F dizi in the key of G, F dizi in the key of A, F dizi in the key of B, etc etc" all on the same dizi, all fingers in the exact same places, and he was insisting that they were different notes.
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Post by lbowen on Aug 9, 2012 23:11:46 GMT
By the way, sorry, but I can't seem to access that shinobue scale page, it says "connection refused"
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 23:21:28 GMT
F dizi in its own key of F means that you treat "F" as "Do" or "1" F dizi in the key of G means that you pretend "G" is "Do" or "1" F dizi in the key of A means that you pretend "A" is "Do" or "1" F dizi in the key of B means that you pretend "B" is "Do" or "1"
and so on . . . . . .
What he should be saying is that all the fingers are in the exact same places, but they are different solfège rather than note.
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Post by Blue on Aug 9, 2012 23:51:25 GMT
Could any other person give his/her two cents about this? Another perspective or approach to my answer is always helpful.
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Post by sanmenxia on Aug 10, 2012 2:02:55 GMT
on the dizi, the lowest note ie all holes closed, is the fifth note of its named key.
Dizi in F: lowest note is C, C is the fifth note in the F scale.
In jianpu the C would be 5 with dot under, read out as "sol" meaning the fifth note in the scale, "Sol" here does not mean G*.
On the same F dizi you can play in a different key eg C. So the lowest note now becomes the first note in the scale of C.
This note is 1 in jianpu, read out as "do" meaning the first note in the scale.
On the same F dizi you can play in a different key eg B flat. So the lowest note now becomes the second note in the scale of B flat.
This note is 2 in jianpu, read out as "re" meaning the second note in the scale.
And so on.
The C is the same note in pitch but changes position in the scale in different keys.
*In some countries, do re mi etc is the same as C D E etc, ie re is just another name for D. That is not the system used in jianpu. In jianpu, 2 read out as re means the second note in the major diatonic scale in any key.
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Post by lbowen on Aug 10, 2012 2:56:27 GMT
Thanks very much everyone... I'm starting to wrap my head around it but this is my first introduction to formal music so it's a little hard!
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Post by Blue on Aug 10, 2012 15:22:27 GMT
Ibowen: don't be discouraged! It takes time. (While I'm a horrible dizi and xiao player, at least I puff those rather than cigarettes outside!)
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Post by davidmdahl on Aug 10, 2012 17:55:11 GMT
Thanks so much, Allen. Yes, I understand what you're saying.... but it seems my teacher was saying something different again! In the jianpu that he showed me, almost every song was played in a different key - ie "F dizi in the key of G, F dizi in the key of A, F dizi in the key of B, etc etc" all on the same dizi, all fingers in the exact same places, and he was insisting that they were different notes. I am not sure what the lesson is if this is the message. You will not easily play a tune in G, A, or B on a F dizi, but you can play any tune on a F dizi by simply playing the tune as if it were in F. This is one of the powerful things about jianpu that I love, that you don't have to think about notes being fixed, just about scale degrees. The only time when playing a tune in a particular key is important is when playing with others. Best wishes, David
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Post by Flolei on Aug 12, 2012 19:39:58 GMT
Yes, it's true. I still react faster when I read the Western notation, but I appreciate in jianpu how the player needs to read only the scale degrees. No transposition anymore! It is really very practical!
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Post by lbowen on Aug 20, 2012 23:34:51 GMT
One final question, I'm feeling very confused about this. My teacher taught me a little of "mo li hua" and I later bought a book of jianpu. The jianpu shows 1=c. I assumed that this meant 1 in the jianpu is a 'c' note, which is what Allen and all of you seem to be saying, but that doesn't match up with what my teacher had taught me...
Is this song just played in different ways?
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Post by Blue on Aug 20, 2012 23:38:50 GMT
No need to fret about asking questions: what jianpu is trying to represent is confusing for many! I have to go to work, so I'll answer later (or maybe someone else will answer by then).
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Post by lbowen on Aug 21, 2012 0:00:45 GMT
what the jianpu shows: |321 2-3 | 561 6 5| I interpret this as: edc d-e| gac a g| what my teacher has taught me was: a g a c d c f d c.... just the first few notes
perhaps I've made a slipup?
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Post by edcat7 on Aug 21, 2012 0:08:34 GMT
the jianpu 321 2-3 etc. looks ok to me. I really wouldn't worry what the Western equivalents are. The jianpo will be the same in whatever key you play.
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Post by lbowen on Aug 21, 2012 0:48:51 GMT
but my point is, I can only really understand the jianpu with reference to the western equivalents... I get the theory, but in practice it makes my head spin
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Post by edcat7 on Aug 21, 2012 1:03:32 GMT
I think you're making things more complicated than they really are. I had absolutely no prior musical knowledge before my dizi tuition. My teacher speaks little English, he's a Mandarin speaker and no Cantonese; I'm a Cantonese speaker. If you cant interchange between jianpo and their Western equivalents, then dont bother, I cant. Luckily this forum was a Godsend and now some of the members here are my best friends.
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Post by davidmdahl on Aug 21, 2012 8:51:41 GMT
what the jianpu shows: |321 2-3 | 561 6 5| I interpret this as: edc d-e| gac a g| what my teacher has taught me was: a g a c d c f d c.... just the first few notes perhaps I've made a slipup? In the arrangement of MoLiHua that I have, there is a six measure introduction that starts |321 2-3 | 561 6 5|. The part that your teacher taught a g a c d c f d c is the beginning of the tune after the introduction. After the tune proceeds for a few phrases, the measures in the introduction are repeated. So, your teacher just taught you the tune without the introduction, which was employed by your book. My arrangement has two sections, the first that you have described, and a second section that is sometimes all that is played: |3 35 6116| 5 56 5|. Welcome to the wild world of Chinese music. <g> Usually there is no definitive version or key. The numeric notation makes it easy to play in any key that is convenient for the particular instruments and singers taking part. Best wishes, David
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Post by sanmenxia on Aug 22, 2012 19:05:45 GMT
what the jianpu shows: |321 2-3 | 561 6 5| I interpret this as: edc d-e| gac a g| what my teacher has taught me was: a g a c d c f d c.... just the first few notes perhaps I've made a slipup? What I've heard is there are 2 slightly different songs called jasmine flower, above is one. The second half of the melody is often used as an instrumental intro and break in between the verses. Some arrangements put the two songs one after the other into a single piece.
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Post by Blue on Oct 9, 2012 13:44:06 GMT
Let me try to present some material from the Wikipedia that might be helpful. The jianpu notation really should be considered a so-called “movable do solfège.” In the movable do system, each solfège syllable corresponds not to a pitch, but to a scale degree: The first degree of a major scale is always sung as 'do' (or 1 in jianpu), the second as 're' (or 2 in jianpu), etc.
In the major Romance and Slavic languages, the syllables Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, and Si (or tea which I have with jam and bread) are used to name notes the same way that the letters C, D, E, F, G, A, and B are used to name notes in English. That corresponds to a fixed solfege. This is NOT what jianpu is supposed to be.
Therefore if your teacher is not explaining jianpu in terms of the “movable do solfege,” he is really misleading you.
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