Violin Tuner for Erhu?

[Miguel]

A friend of mine who plays Violin told me that a "Violin Tuner" makes life easier when I told my friend that tuning a Violin is hard..... my friend told me that a "Violin Tuner" makes everything easier.....and I saw one online cgi.ebay.ph/LED-Digital-Clip-Guitar-Violin-Erhu-Ukulele-Tuner-/130500091040?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e62695ca0

Saw that same tuner on a Musical Instruments shop. I was originally looking for "Erhu Strings" Told them "Do you have Erhu (Ar-hoo) strings?) and even showed them the spelling on my Cellular phone, they don't know what I'm talking about......they had a blank face...... but at least I saw the Tuner from above...... and it's affordable too...... so a tuner like that.....can it make my life easier just like my Violin playing friend told me? do they really work on Erhus? hmmmm...... I dunno what to do about those tuners are they any good? my friend also has a tuning fork and allergic to Violin Rosin...... ;D

[mrbamboo]

Hi Miguel

I don’t know what type of tuner your friend uses for his violin, but any tuner that is CHROMATIC should do the trick. The tuner shown in the Ebay link is specially designed for guitars. You are limited with these, in particular if you want to add sharps or flats to your erhu pitch. There are countless shops on the www where you can order a tuner (e.g. Eason). The question whether you want to use a tuner or rather a pitch pipe… well, I rather like the tuner.

[George]

Hi Miguel,
Your freebie tuner, which emits tones to match the usual tuning of an erhu's open strings, should be absolutely fine, unless you're playing with others and you really don't trust your ear.

[davidmdahl]

I like a tuner that produces tones as well as indicate if I am playing sharp/flat/in-tune. I have been using the Sabine MT9000 for years and like it a lot. It also has a metronome. This can be handy, although I have not used it much.

Other musician friends simply use tuner and metronome apps on their iPhone. A violin tuner should work also, since it will produce D/A. That's good for most of the time. Sometimes you may want to tune down a step to C/G, so a chromatic tuner is more flexible.

Best wishes,

David

[Miguel]

;D Wow thank you mrbamboo sir George davidmdahl I see...... almost considered buying that inappropriate tuner (because it says Erhu tuner) I was hesitant and I said to myself I should delve more into this tuner thingy........thank you for your suggestions.......saved me from buying an inappropriate tuner. I will follow your suggestions.

[sanmenxia]

You can also use a software tuner like AP Tuner (Windows).

An audio editing program, like Audacity, can generate a tone (440hz or any pitch) which you save as an mp3 file. Then you can copy the file to your mobile phone, means one less gadget to carry around.

[Miguel]

Thank you Sanmenxia ;D Ummm..... I visited the music store again and I didn't bother to ask if they had any Erhu strings in stock......just saw several Chromatic Tuners and also saw a Chromatic tuner from Eason music www.eason.com.sg/products/string_access/mtu9.jsp ....... just a question how does that kind of tuner work? Chromatic tuner? does it also generate beeping sounds like the blue tuner thingy that came with my Erhu? or it reads my Erhu tunes that I play and it analyzes it and if it finds it out of tune it instructs me to tune it higher or lower and tells me if I am playing the right tunes....... thank you. the Chromatic tuner that I saw from the music store has the brand name "Cherub" and "JOYO" they both look the same to me..... like the link above. ;D

[mrbamboo]

If you really want to know how tuners work.. You can find sufficient explanation here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_tuner

[Miguel]

;D Thank you mr.bamboo I will look into it..... hopefully I will make the right decision.

[Miguel]

I'm Sorry Sir George ..... I still can't tune my Erhu manually via the blue tuner thingy that makes 2 beeping sounds maybe I'm still not used to such things or something is wrong with my setup, I re-tied the Qianjin again (at first it was a chore now I got the hang of it). The white wood bridge is in the middle of my Erhu skin, I reduced the Rosin on my bow and followed the free section of learnerhu.com it's till out of tune, sometimes it would sound like my door hinge creaking.....My cellular phone is not suitable for an Erhu tuner it's "software unrecognized" "software incompatible" sigh...... So I bought a "JOYO JT-20 Chromatic Tuner" from the music shop and it's only 11$ or 480 Pesos and while tuning again, Something horrible happened yet again I lost an additional "2" sets of Erhu strings, I was tuning it with my JOYO Tuner and a mistake happened my string had a dent and I ignored it then I tuned it/set the pitch higher.....and then it sounded like someone plucked my strings like in the plucking of the string in Erquan Ying Yue. then to my horror my string with the dent was broken I just said "charge it to experience" next time I will avoid such dents on my string when I would loop it in a wrong way...... Is it normal for beginners without teachers to break their strings? hopefully it won't happen again I have 4 more set of strings intact..... here's my "JOYO chromatic Tuner" (My pictures below) I tested it, it works wow it can tell me things...... so the Inside string or string nearest the player or the fat string? is tuned to D4 and the Outer string is A4. I would bow each string separately and would stop only if I would get a consistent D or A on my tuner I utilized the "Clip" function of my tuner and clipped it on my wooden tuning pegs. It would take more than an "out of tune"/"creaking door hinge" Erhu and broken strings to stop me from learning how to play my Erhu, even if I would break a lot of strings and tune constantly and my hand would get sore because of constant tuning (Weird a red sore emerged on my left hand because of constant tuning, my left hand constantly tuning the pegs.) I won't give up, I will forgo my time and effort/resources to learn. Hopefully After my Erhu is properly "tuned" then I can start learning from "learnerhu.com", As I would recall from the "I Ching" that "Perseverance Furthers...." I'm sure that if I kept on fiddling/tinkering I will get somewhere, I bear that in mind never surrender, I'm just starting....."Rome was not built in one Day." ;D

My Erhu Wool damper made my Erhu sound weirder...... I returned to using my Black Sponge. I can't seem to get it right with my Wool damper....... Thank you for your time. ;D

Now I also recall (Confucius?) "What you hear, you forget; what you see, you remember; what you do, you understand."












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[George]

Hi Miguel,
Sorry about your sore fingers. Usually it's pressing down on the strings that hurts, until your skin has toughened up. Some strings, like Mudans, are a little softer than others.

The sponge is fine, but if you do want to try a felt damper later on, you might try using a shorter length of it, perhaps cutting a little off each time until it's just right.

Hopefully the creaking door effect will disappear when you get your better rosin, or at least when you've had some practice with bowing smoothly.

You've got the inner and outer strings' tuning right. Tuning metal strings without fine tuners is always a bit of an art, and I've snapped a dented string myself. If your pegs don't turn perfectly evenly, something like Pirastro Peg Compound can help.

You have the right attitude to do really well!

Best wishes,
George

[Miguel]

Wow ;D Thank you sir George. The sore hands and fingers are normal I see....... ;D as they say "No Pain No Gain". I will try again with the Wool Damper until it's as thick as my Black Erhu Sponge. I see so the position and the ideal/usual Tune of the 2 strings are correct should be "D" & "A". I followed the free portion of "learnerhu.com" again, and I checked the pictures of the Erhu's setup online. I even took out my Long Metre stick to measure the correct distance of the Qianjin from the Erhu bridge, and the distance of the 2 strings between the neck. I retied the Qianjin. I followed the instructions. then I tuned it again, I set my Chromatic tuner (range 410-450Hz) to 440Hz after checking my Blue manual tuner thingy that makes 2 beeping sounds saw that it has "440Hz" behind the box. So after setting up my Erhu again. I was able to tune the Fat string/Inside string to "D". My chromatic tuner is consistent with the "D" on my Inner string. and it sounded fine.Then when I was tuning my Outer string or the Thin string (I bow each string separately for my Chromatic Tuner) I was unable to get a consistent "A" reading on my tuner, I bowed slowly so it can accurately read my Notes more. I utilized the "CLIP" and then the "MIC" function, I just can't get the "A" without Breaking my Thin strings when I would loosen the string I can't get a sound from the string then I would gradually turn the peg and tighten it I can't find the "A" and then it would snap I always get "B" and "Bb". I snapped a few strings when I was tuning for "A", I always turn the peg slowly but it still breaks and I didn't have the dents on my stings last night unlike last time. The thin string just snapped when I was tuning it....... I was reading the Chromatic Tuner and saying "G" "D" "F" when it gets to "B" I said now where's "A?" then my Thin string would snap...... is it that hard to tune the Outer or Thin string to "A" without breaking the strings? I'm still not used to such things......but I will always try again.

[George]

The only thing I can think of is that you may be tuning to too high an octave. Their are good acoustic reasons why a tuner that can handle other instruments might not recognise erhu notes properly. The proper string tunings are D4 (293.66Hz) and A4 (440Hz). www.onlinetunermetronome.com/preset/erhu-tuner-standard.html or www.softist.com/chinamusic/erhu/erhu.php could help.

[davidmdahl]

Make sure that the strings aren't wrapped around each other at the qianjin.

Could you tune your erhu up close to what you think it should be without breaking any strings, and then make a recording while you pluck or bow each string? If you can upload that recording and post a link here, we may be able to tell from the sound what is happening.

Best wishes,

David

[Miguel]

Sir George and sir Davidmdahl I was unable to record my Erhu because I ran out of thin/outer strings.....Thank you sir George,before I ran outta strings, I was able to tune my Erhu to "D" and "A" the fat one is "D" and the thin one is "A" it sounds better but something is still wrong with the sound..... I was bowing it like on the free video. I also checked a lot of stuff on my Erhu again seems like nothing is amiss...... then I said to myself "I don't recall being Tone Deaf....(and I'm not ) I said "I tuned the Erhu correctly to "D" and "A"..... I also discovered that although my strings looks O.K to me. the fat string to the left when facing me..... then I've read sir Davidmdahl's comment "Make sure that the strings aren't wrapped around each other at the qianjin." I checked the strings at the qianjin and Lo! and behold.....they look fine on the other end of my Erhu near the base but near the qianjin they are wrapped around each other the thin string facing my left side and the fat one on the right side at the qianjin. The position of the strings is correct.....on the other side of my Erhu, but the position of my strings on the qianjin is incorrect....... they are wrapped around each other as sir Davidmdahl commented..... Wow thank you sir Davidmdahl then.....Whoa, I just ran out of Erhu strings..... I ordered "13" sets of Dunhuang Erhu strings from Eason Music like my old strings hopefully it can last for several months now that I know....... out of inexperience I broke "8" sets of Erhu strings, (1 inner and 1 outer string equals to 1 set) The first one and the others broke while I was tuning my Erhu. Then the annoying "Bent String" claimed "6" more set of strings ( And just after I became more cautious with my Tuning, the Bent string problem came.) Because I was trying to correctly follow the Eason videos. like Insert the string in the Peg until the sharp tip emerges, then Loop the Erhu string once in a "Clockwise/Anti clockwise" position and then turn the Peg in an "Anti-Clockwise/Clockwise" direction depending on whether it is the upper Peg or Lower Peg I followed the videos..... I Lost the strings that way..... the strings would unravel and get tied up while I was following the videos..... and it would get bent and then I would tune it and then it would "Snap!". How do they really do it? the looping of the strings is the opposite of the turning of the Pegs....... The Looped strings would just unravel when I would turn the peg in an opposite direction, I said well at least I got the turning of the Pegs correctly then I redid it again..... The opposite turning of the Pegs would undo my Loop on the Peg then I would say "Wait now the string is not looped like in the video because when I would turn the Peg in the other direction the looped string would follow it and it's not looped in the way it's supposed to be..... Do I have to tie/loop the string in some way? so it would stay looped in it's supposed direction like in the video?" Hmmm I'm still waiting for my new order of Erhu strings, my school Allowance covered the cost of the string ;D . (Below are some pictures of My Erhu strings and position of strings and the bent strings.....also I think I should replace my black Erhu Sponge because it's got a crack on it, the strings are sinking on my Erhu Sponge.)

I followed the free videos hopefully I got the "3rd Picture" correctly the fat string on the upper Peg. Loop string Anti-clockwise then turn the Peg clockwise.
Thank you everyone! ;D












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[George]

Wow! I hope you like the sound of Dunhuang strings (not that there’s any reason you shouldn’t - in fact I expect they’d be a good choice for your erhu). If you can keep them somewhere very dry, thirteen sets should keep you going for years.

There’s a mistake in the text, though not the video, for “How to change strings” on the learnerhu.com website: the wrong directions of rotation are given for tightening the strings.

The following instructions for attaching the strings are long-winded but I hope easy to follow. I’ve not included Sung Wah’s initial loop in the opposite direction to that used for tightening, which is too sophisticated for me.

First place the erhu on its side on a table in front of you, with the headstock to your left, the base to your right, and the snakeskin end of the resonator closer to you. (These directions will still work, however, if you prefer to attach the strings with the erhu in playing position.)

To attach the thicker inner string, begin by turning the peg that’s closer to the headstock so that the hole for the string is parallel with the neck. Thread the sharp end of the string through the peg in the direction of the headstock, leaving an inch or so sticking out. Take the end of the string and wind it once around the peg clockwise, then pinch its last half-centimetre back on itself to make a ‘v’, and insert this into the hole in the peg. Grip the peg handle, with your thumb pushing the neck from the other side to stop the peg slipping, and turn it clockwise, making sure that the string winds over itself at least once. When the loop-end of the string is close enough to the base, use your left hand to hold the winding in place, while with your right hand you press the loop-end onto the lower of the two pins. (If you have the erhu in playing position, use the pin that’s closer to you.) Continue turning the peg clockwise to tighten it. The string needs to descend from the peg a good distance from the neck, close to the peg’s end. Stop turning when there’s no more slack in the string, before it becomes very taut.

To attach the thinner outer string, begin by turning the peg that’s closer to the resonator so that the hole for the string is parallel with the neck. Thread the sharp end of the string through the peg in the direction of the headstock, leaving an inch or so sticking out. Take the end of the string and wind it once around the peg anticlockwise, then pinch its last half-centimetre back on itself to make a ‘v’, and and insert this into the hole in the peg. Grip the peg handle, with your thumb pushing the neck from the other side to stop the peg slipping, and turn it anticlockwise, making sure that the string winds over itself at least once. When the loop-end of the string is close enough to the base, use your left hand to hold the winding in place, while with your right hand you press the loop-end onto the upper of the two pins. (If you have the erhu in playing position, use the pin that’s further from you.) Continue turning the peg anticlockwise to tighten it. The string needs to descend from the peg a good distance from the neck, close to the peg’s end. Stop turning when there’s no more slack in the string, before it becomes very taut.

Now you can tie the qianjin and put the bridge and damper in place, before tuning the strings by tightening them further. With the erhu in playing position, turn the upper peg clockwise to raise the thicker inner string’s pitch, and the lower peg anticlockwise to raise the thinner outer string’s pitch. The thicker inner string is typically tuned to D4 (293.66Hz); the thinner outer string is tuned a fifth higher, typically to A4 (440Hz.)

If you’re replacing a string when the qianjin is already in place, run the string through the qianjin before going through the steps above.

If the pegs don’t turn smoothly despite treatment with something like Pirastro Peg Compound, you should either get them checked by a luthier or use fine-tuners, since wear to the pegs and their holes is permanent.

[davidmdahl]

Yikes, Miguel, you have pretty much gone through a worst-case scenario for changing strings. The trouble with step-by-step instructions, is that they can make it seem more complicated than it actually is. The basics are that the inside string loops out on the inside, and the outside string loops out on the outside.

It can be tricky to install a string, especially if you have already tried once and had to start over. Once a string has been wound around the peg and come undone, it is a challenge not to kink it. The key is to be patent and careful. If you are having trouble getting the looped end of the string to stay in place at the base end, fix it in place with some tape. You might even get someone to help you take up the slack on the string as you turn the peg. You need one hand to turn the peg, another hand to keep the windings on the end of the peg, and sometimes another hand to manage the slack of the string.

I hope you have better luck with the next string change.

Best wishes,

David

[sanmenxia]

If you're putting the strings onto a bare erhu, ie an erhu without the bridge and qianjin in place, then it might be better at first to leave the strings a bit loose. Then after you've tied the qianjin and put the bridge in place, you can tighten the strings to full tension.

If several sets of strings are breaking, then I would think you're simply tuning them too high, maybe to too high an octave. The nearer the qianjin is to the pegs, the higher the string tension. A new string shouldn't have a sharp bend in it, if there is then it is faulty.

[sanmenxia]

Jun 3, 2011 20:29:22 GMT davidmdahl said:

Yikes, Miguel, you have pretty much gone through a worst-case scenario for changing strings. The trouble with step-by-step instructions, is that they can make it seem more complicated than it actually is. The basics are that the inside string loops out on the inside, and the outside string loops out on the outside.

It can be tricky to install a string, especially if you have already tried once and had to start over. Once a string has been wound around the peg and come undone, it is a challenge not to kink it. The key is to be patent and careful. If you are having trouble getting the looped end of the string to stay in place at the base end, fix it in place with some tape. You might even get someone to help you take up the slack on the string as you turn the peg. You need one hand to turn the peg, another hand to keep the windings on the end of the peg, and sometimes another hand to manage the slack of the string.

I hope you have better luck with the next string change.

Best wishes,

David

Here's a 'trick':
wrap the string around the peg without turning the peg. When the string is the right length to reach the erhu bottom, keep your left hand on the peg end to hold the windings in place, then use the right hand to attach the looped end to the bottom. If the string is a bit long, pull the string tight as you take the looped end towards the bottom. Keeping the string tight, you then attach it and turn the peg at the same time.

Haha, putting it words does make it sound harder than it actually is.

[George]

Hi sanmenxia, I've edited a couple of your points into my instructions above; I hope that's OK.

[Miguel]

My word...... Thank you very much Sir George, Davidmdahl and Sanmenxia. ;D I see so that explains it..... the V on the strings and such...... WOW this will save me a lot of strings when my Package would arrive a few weeks from now, Thank you very very much for enlightening me. ;D I can't wait for my new package to arrive. While it's still on it's way..... I will just practice my Bowing again and watch the tutorial videos on my Erhu CD again. ;D

[mrbamboo]

Hi Miguel,
George and Sanmenxia already have pointed out that you possibly have tuned your strings too high (by one octave). I have seen the gash in your erhu sponge and I’m thinking they’re right. Same thing happened to me a couple of times when I started the whole erhu busyness.
I didn’t realize back then how little I had to turn the pegs to get the pitch right. Now I’ve uploaded a short youtube video for you to watch and see what I mean.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6lDUqPIk9I

The video is low end quality and probably I’m going to delete it soon. I fixed a paper hand on top of the peg so that it is easier to make out the motion. The peg is already wound up with the A-string which is still slack. When I start turning the peg you’ll notice that it barely needs a quarter turn to get the string tuned (almost ) properly. I hope this humble bit of advice will help you as soon as you’ve got your new strings.

[davidmdahl]

It's not possible to tune erhu strings an octave too high. It is more likely that the strings got wrapped around each other. When this happens, it is hard to get a distinct pitch out of either string. I know because this happened to me when I tried out my latest new erhu, the red zitan MRX. I felt a great temptation to over-tighten the strings, but fortunately realized something was wrong before breaking anything. Upon checking the strings at the qianjin, I found the problem.

The free introductory videos on the Eason Resources page provide tones for tuning to.

Best wishes,

David

[Miguel]

WOW I see.... Maybe I turned too much. Thank you again everyone, Thank you very much mr.bamboo and davidmdahl ;D I saw the helpful video mr.bamboo, I think I will also install that paper thingy on the end of my Erhu pegs and then turn the pegs slowly (slower than my usual turning) like in the video and make sure that the strings are not too tight. and make sure that the strings are not wrapped around each other (yet again) at the qianjin, so that's why it sounds weird to me. Whew and I thought that I was slowly becoming Tone Deaf because I tuned the Erhu to "D" and "A" and it still sounds weird to me.....then I broke my strings trying to correct it.....what a relief it's just my wrong Erhu setup and inexperience.

[mrbamboo]

David, in order to validate your claim, I’ve just sacrificed one of my old experimental erhu A strings. You’re right, it snapped at G5. But Miguel partly did tune his strings too high, I’m sure of that. The gashed sponge is sufficient proof in my opinion.