|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 8, 2010 23:03:21 GMT
Yes, yes, finally I'm coming up with some newbie questions. I hope they are unique enough to be interesting!
I've received my erhu rejuvination kit from Eason. YAY! You may recall that I reconditioned a cello bow with fishing line, used violin rosin, made strings from a heavy gague thread, carved a bridge from oak, and made a qianjin from dental floss, makeup sponge between the strings... totally homebrewed it.
In playing with my rag-tag DIY things, I was really getting some nice sounds, but wasn't going out of my way to learn much since I was waiting for "the real stuff."
Now: I've put on my metal strings, changed over to a real bridge (black), put felt between the strings, rosined my erhu bow with pretty Song rosin that came with it...
...and it all sounds HORRIBLE!!! Weird octave-high overtones, banshee like screams, and a sound that can only be compared to the gurgling of a garrotted cat being beaten with a set of highland bagpipes.
I tried bowing with my original Arkansas fishing line bow, and it only sounded marginally better. And by "marginal," I mean "I could be a victim of over-positive thinking."
I can only think of two things: 1. There is something seriously wrong with my bowing technique; 2. This is the way the thing is supposed to sound! Since I definitely don't believe number 2, I will presume number 1 is the likely culprit.
My question is this: what the heck could be so different in homemade, fiber versus fancy steel strings that my bowing technique would be so completely, totally off?
Another, sub-question would be this: would the beautiful world of Chinese musical instruments come crashing down around my ears if I chose to go back to my nasty home-made strings? :-)
Happy times, all, and thanks for any feedback!
H4
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 9, 2010 4:38:30 GMT
How about posting some photos of your erhu? A shot of the head (peg end) and snake skin should do the trick. Load the photos to a website accessible to all, and post the links.
I would look for properly installed strings, pad, qianjin, and adequately rosined bow. A new bow takes a lot of elbow grease to get rosined up. Once it has enough rosin and gets played in, the bow will not require so much rosin to maintain the sound.
The frustrating part of the erhu is that everything has to be properly adjusted or the sound can be terrible.
Best wishes,
David
|
|
|
Post by dsouthwood on Oct 9, 2010 16:11:19 GMT
I had a problem with some notes squealing, and when I mentioned it to my teacher he took the felt pad from under the strings, cut a piece off, and put it back. The squeak was gone. He told me that the felt pad should slide under the strings without effort; just a light touch is needed. I had been trying to get rid of the squeal by brute force. Don't know if this will solve part of your problem, but it would be worth a try.
Also, at first I was making sounds like strangling chickens, and part of the problem was too much rosin on the bow, and another part of the problem was too much pressure combined with bowing slowly. What I now do when I rosin the bow is put on more than enough rosin and then take a can of compressed air and blow off the excess. Finding the right pressure for a given bowing speed comes through practice, but it seems that because of the physics involved, you need to lighten up more when the end of the bow closest to your bowing hand is on the strings. A variable pressure seems to be the key there.
Good luck!
Dennis
|
|
may
Intermediate
Posts: 34
|
Post by may on Oct 10, 2010 21:06:41 GMT
Maybe you can try the following: 1. Tie the qian jing, resulting with the strings about half inch away from the post. 2. Loosen the bow tension when bowing. 3. Make sure dampener is not too thick. (The strings should rest on the bridge, not the dampner.)
That's all I can think of without actually seeing your erhu.
May
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 11, 2010 7:38:32 GMT
Greetings, all, and thank you for your responses!
I will be posting some photos in the next day or so, so that you all get an idea of what is going on with my erhu. It's your basic erhu, nothing spectacular; round soundbox, carved dragon on the top, snakeskin on the front. I'm sure it's the AMC Pacer of erhus, lol.
I appreciate too the suggestions about the dampener, I did have it kind of crammed in there, probably with a bit more gusto than needed. I've lightened up on it, but I'm still having much the same issues.
I do think it has something to do with the bow, or my technique. I haven't tried much changing the tension on the bow; when I was using my homebrew cello bow, I had it tight as one would expect for a Western instrument. I also bet that I need to work some more on rosin, "elbow grease" as David has pointed out. I experimented with bowing more rapidly, and that did alleviate some of the horror-shop sounds, but it's still pretty awful. About how loose would be appropriate for bow tension? I know that everyone has their own "setting," but there must be a baseline tension that beginners start with.
Oh and May, I set the qian jing about the width of my thumb from the post, and the vibrational length from bridge to qian jing is from the point of my elbow to where my little finger meets my hand. It worked pretty well with homemade strings, but I'm not married to that setup by any means. It may be a bit more than a half inch between post and strings, too; my thumbs are not abnormally wide, but they may be wider than that.
It's going to be a few days before I will be able to pick up my sad little erhu due to a bit of ensuing insanity. It will be good therapy to return to my shrieking stick when it's all over. The first thing I'll do is to take and post some pix, and rosin my bow more, measure my string height, re-set my damper, and then go from there, eh?
Thanks again y'all for your kindness, you are some great folks for taking time to help out this ol' Arkansas boy!
H4
|
|
|
Post by mrbamboo on Oct 11, 2010 15:58:20 GMT
Ah, and the strings should not be crossed at qianjin level. This can produce horrible sounds. Roland
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 14, 2010 22:27:51 GMT
Update!
Still working on getting some pix up, seems that my insanity lasted a hair longer than I would have liked. Okay, who likes insanity any time... Meh.
At any rate, I repositioned the sound damper, rosined up the bow with more vim and vigor (probably too much, actually), and now at least open tones sound 98% good! YAY! Whenever I try to finger a note, though, I still get a chorus of bizarre overtones and weird waveforms, but I am going to assume that is mostly beginner stuff that more practice (with cotton in my ears as well as in the dogs' ears) will work out. I still have some nice sounds on two strings, no fingers. Anyone know of any pieces with only two notes, a fifth apart? <snicker>
Pj
|
|
may
Intermediate
Posts: 34
|
Post by may on Oct 15, 2010 17:15:12 GMT
Glad you're finding some improvements with the setting adjustments. Maybe try moving the qian jing up a bit more from where you have it now. And even though it's tempting, don't use too much rosin on the bow. Keep playing! It can only get better right? May Update! Still working on getting some pix up, seems that my insanity lasted a hair longer than I would have liked. Okay, who likes insanity any time... Meh. At any rate, I repositioned the sound damper, rosined up the bow with more vim and vigor (probably too much, actually), and now at least open tones sound 98% good! YAY! Whenever I try to finger a note, though, I still get a chorus of bizarre overtones and weird waveforms, but I am going to assume that is mostly beginner stuff that more practice (with cotton in my ears as well as in the dogs' ears) will work out. I still have some nice sounds on two strings, no fingers. Anyone know of any pieces with only two notes, a fifth apart? <snicker> Pj
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 15, 2010 17:31:11 GMT
<snip>At any rate, I repositioned the sound damper, rosined up the bow with more vim and vigor (probably too much, actually), and now at least open tones sound 98% good! If you have a cloud of rosin coming from your bow, that's too much. Be sure to wipe rosin dust from the erhu body and snake skin. Once you have enough rosin on the bow, and it gets played in, you can swipe more rosin on the bow every couple of days, depending on how much you play. It does not take much vim and vigor to refresh the rosin. < Whenever I try to finger a note, though, I still get a chorus of bizarre overtones and weird waveforms, but I am going to assume that is mostly beginner stuff that more practice (with cotton in my ears as well as in the dogs' ears) will work out. I still have some nice sounds on two strings, no fingers. Anyone know of any pieces with only two notes, a fifth apart? <snicker> Pj It sounds like there is still some adjustment in order for the damper or qianjin. I still play the ancient tune "Tu-Ning".<g> Best wishes, David
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 16, 2010 3:33:01 GMT
Checked the strings @ qingjin, and there's no crossing. And I do have plenty of rosin on the bow, but there's not a huge cloud, or even a smallish one, just a light dusting of rosin on the skin and body.
I will take the advice and move my qingjin up a bit. I'm thinking I can do a temporary one out of "just whatever" and then make a more permanent one from the qingjin material I was sent by Eason, yes? I'm thinking a bit of unwaxed piper's hemp, so it can be easily moved, but not too easily.
Oh, and May, in fact my strings are nearly 3/4" from the post! I'll be cinching that in when I tie my temporary qingjin; evidently my thumbs ARE more wide than your average, eh? And boy howdy, things can only get better. I subscribe to the Live Toad Theory: start each and every day by eating a live toad, and the rest of the day can't POSSIBLY be any worse. :-D
Lol, David, did you know that way back in the ancient days when I was an active bagpipe player, we played the EXACT SAME TUNE! The multiculturality of it just makes me weepy...<schniff>....
As always, the advice here is AWESOME! I hope to get some pix up over the weekend, once i get my new adjustments done. Another similarity to the bagpipes, evidently, is the amount of TINKERING. !!JOY!! I love that kind of instrument!
Peace, y'all - Pj (whups, gave myself away, Pj is my usual initials, and H4 is a new one...hah!)
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 16, 2010 8:15:47 GMT
Hey Pj,
Bagpipes! Isn't that the instrument that sounds like a cat fighting with a duck? It sounds like you have the right stuff to play the erhu. Cool! Was that the highland pipes? I am more of a fan of the Uilleann and the Northumbrian small pipes, especially indoors.
I'm looking forward to the erhu photos.
Best wishes,
David
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 19, 2010 21:00:45 GMT
Howdy, David - Ya, that was the Great Highlands, the shrieking octopus. In my hands, they really do sound a lot like a duck-catfight. In the hands of some of the great players, they are the weeping voice of the moors. They were never really intended for indoor use though, they are a battlefield instrument that serves the same purpose as the bugle in the calvary - communication over long distances. The fact that they brought the GHBs indoors is a testament to the Gaelic tenacity and love of the painfully beautiful. Ever eat haggis? Same deal. Oooo, I do love the Uileanns, for sure, and have always wanted to play them, but I don't have a spare 10 years of my life to devote to the daily practice and maintenance. I love the Northies too, but it's a similar deal, just not as long a time. I also play (at) the Scottish smallpipes, and the Chelis pipes, both have the same fingering scheme as the GHBs. But to come back to topic, I took some pix of my erhu, and when I pulled them up on the computer, they were just too dark and probably too small to see much. Looks like a re-shoot. I have replaced the qingjin with a temporary setup, and now that I have moments in time, I'll start fiddling (no pun intended) around with changing the vibrational length. Wheeee!!! Pj
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 20, 2010 4:31:40 GMT
Hi Pj, Make sure the qianjin is pulling the 2 erhu strings towards the neck of the erhu. Sometimes when you tie the qianjin too wide and you loop the strings too inside on the pegs and the result is the strings form a straight line from the pegs to the bridge. Now you want the qianjin to pull the strings towards the neck so that a little angle is formed. So try to loop the erhu strings on the pegs further out if your qianjin is wide. You can play ice ice baby by vanilla ice or under pressure by queen with the D and A open notes. SW
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 20, 2010 21:57:10 GMT
Song - First, if that is your little precious, OMG, she is utterly BOOFUL!! What a doll! Also: The very fact that you know how to play "Ice Ice Baby"... Well, let me just say that I'm so proud to be a part of this community! Currently, as (I hope) will show in the pix I'm about to (try to) upload, my qingjin does pull back the strings toward the neck. I didn't do that because I knew to, I think it just happened, serindipity style. Speaking of which, the "qingjin" I have on there is very obviously two plastic zip-strips. Yes, I know. Did I mention I'm in Arkansas? This is not a permanent feature, although I will have to admit I like the Home Depot aspect of it. Still, I've used these to make sure I have that 1/2" space between the strings and the neck, and to make it easier when I put on my more traditional qingjin. It's just been a time thing. Oh, and the white looking marks toward the top are only reflections of sunlight, as I took these outside. Flickr has changed DRASTICALLY the way that they do BBcode and external hosting, so I'm not entirely sure this will work, but here goes. IMAG0082 by PiperJon, on Flickr IMAG0079 by PiperJon, on Flickr IMAG0080 by PiperJon, on Flickr IMAG0081 by PiperJon, on Flickr IMAG0078 by PiperJon, on Flickr Well, it worked in preview, so there you go. One thing I've noticed is that mine doesn't have one of those platforms that I've seen on other erhu. Is that something I should be seeking out or making? I'm pretty good at woodworking, so it would likely be this second. Pj
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 21, 2010 2:47:05 GMT
Oh pj, what you got there is not an erhu. It is a gaohu.
A gaohu is a higher pitched version of the erhu. While the playing styles are similar, some stuff from the resurrection kit cannot be used.
1. The bridge would be half the size of what you are currently using. The current bridge is too big, which does not let the sound out.
2. The strings I sent you is for erhu, which is of a thicker gauge and tuned to D, A. You need gaohu strings and subsequently tune it to G, D. The snakeskin surface of the gaohu is smaller so if you use erhu strings on it, it will feel very unresponsive and have lots of noise.
The bow, rosin and damper is fine. Except that your damper's position could be better.
And your gaohu is a traditional gaohu without the baseplate. Those are usually played by clamping the gaohu between your knees.
...and i don't think the temporary qianjin can make it...
SW
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 21, 2010 4:10:31 GMT
OOOOOOhhhhh!!!!! ::facepalm:: Well I'll be! I guess that explains a whole lot, doesn't it. Then obviously my first task tonight when I get home is to take off those dang erhu strings, eh wot? I bet that can't be good for it! And it also explains why my homemade thread-based strings sounded better, they were much thinner than these metal strings. How can you tell by looking? How funny, I knew you were Song, I didn't realize you were THAT Song, of Eason! Say, I should say here that I had a great buying experience with my Erhu stuff, will definitely be doing business with you again. Soon, evidently. Hah! Okay, so now that I know have a gaohu, I'll be needing to order me some gaohu stuff. I was just looking at your site, and I see where you have gaohu strings but I didn't see if you had any bridges. Did I just miss them? There again, if I knew some basic dimensions (diameter and height) I'm sure I can carve a suitable temporary until I get the real thing. Oh, and like I said, the temporary qianjin is exactly that, temporary, just there to hold the strings stable while I tie on the real one. Is the distance still 1/2 from the neck? Clamped between the knees, so then the bow doesn't go nearly perpendicular to the string plane, then? I'll be looking for some videos, boy howdy. Lol, how fun, it's like owning a whole new instrument! Life isn't rarely what you expect it, huh. Needless to say, at some point there will be an erhu in my future, too. :-) Pj
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 21, 2010 4:26:28 GMT
Oh, and what would you suggest for my damper? Forgot to ask.
Peej
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 21, 2010 6:54:52 GMT
Well, take a look at this picture of a gaohu and you'll get an idea how small is the bridge and the damper as well: www.eason.com.sg/products/pics/gaohu/large/HGH9-3.jpgHere's songfei playing the gaohu in between the knees: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI9-URr9r80The gaohu bridges are not listed. Just add another US$1 to the order and I'll put in a few. In any case if you are going to play it between the knees, you will not need the damper. But I think for starters you can put the damper and play it like a normal erhu on your lap because that is much easier. SW
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Oct 21, 2010 20:50:19 GMT
OH! That pic helps tremendously, actually, particularly the front-on and side views for both the dimensional aspects of the bridge but for the damper as well. I'll be ordering the correct strings here in just a little while, and I'll be sure to add a dollar for some bridges.
I think I'll definitely be playing it erhu style; I'm a big ol' boy, and I think I would find it difficult to play it in the way the video portrays, at least for a bit.
And as always, your advice and encouragement are MOST welcome! Thanks again! Pj
|
|
may
Intermediate
Posts: 34
|
Post by may on Oct 26, 2010 17:01:13 GMT
Hi Sung Wah, I also have an instrument very much like the one in the pictures here. Except mine has a deer head, no pegs, bridge or strings. I thought it was some kind of jing hu since it has a small round body. I bought it from a friend, and he said he used it as wall decoration for 20 plus years. I hope to restore it to see if it will play. Can I purchase some parts from you? I'll see if I can get a picture of it so you can help me determine what it is. Thanks! May Oh pj, what you got there is not an erhu. It is a gaohu. A gaohu is a higher pitched version of the erhu. While the playing styles are similar, some stuff from the resurrection kit cannot be used. 1. The bridge would be half the size of what you are currently using. The current bridge is too big, which does not let the sound out. 2. The strings I sent you is for erhu, which is of a thicker gauge and tuned to D, A. You need gaohu strings and subsequently tune it to G, D. The snakeskin surface of the gaohu is smaller so if you use erhu strings on it, it will feel very unresponsive and have lots of noise. The bow, rosin and damper is fine. Except that your damper's position could be better. And your gaohu is a traditional gaohu without the baseplate. Those are usually played by clamping the gaohu between your knees. ...and i don't think the temporary qianjin can make it... SW
|
|
|
Post by song on Oct 27, 2010 5:04:14 GMT
Sure May. I hope the snakeskin is still intact.
SW
|
|
may
Intermediate
Posts: 34
|
Post by may on Nov 8, 2010 1:04:07 GMT
Thanks Sung Wah. The skin's intact, but not too impressive. It looks dry and rather thin. I still need to take a picture of it so you can see it. Thanks again, May Sure May. I hope the snakeskin is still intact. SW
|
|
|
Post by quadraticharmony on Nov 9, 2010 1:06:05 GMT
For anyone interested in the ongoing saga of my erhu gaohu, it seems that things have finally worked out quite nicely, thanks to Song and everyone else who took their time to reply. I received my gaohu strings and my bridges in the mail, and after installing a new set, tying on a new REAL gianjin, and using an appropriately sized bridge it sounds GREAT! Well, the two notes I can play... they sound GREAT! It may sound like a no-brainer, but identifying the instrument correctly SURE goes a long way to make things work better... ::facepalm:: Thanks Song for being so patient with me, eh? At any rate, now that I'm tired of playing "Under Pressure," looks like it's time to learn a few new notes or so. I did get a pretty nice sound from both my A and my E, so that effectively DOUBLED my available note range! WOW! Lol. Needless to say, I'm trying to take things slowly and get good, solid sound before mucking things up with a bunch of silly old notes... Thank you all so much for the help you've given me! I'll be round again soon enough with some more insanity from Arkansas, I'm sure. Pj
|
|
|
Post by davidmdahl on Nov 9, 2010 2:30:18 GMT
That is good news about your gaohu. One thing though, if you are tuning to A/E, then I suggest going down a step to G/D. It would be a shame to break strings already. <g>
Best wishes,
David
|
|
|
Post by song on Nov 9, 2010 3:36:27 GMT
That's great pj!
SW
|
|