silk string for Erhu?

[rojieh]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had tried using silk strings, the traditional material for erhu strings. I think this would be interesting because silk strings have a very different sound from metal strings. In addition, they are generally quieter, which could be useful for practice and also for a more meditative use of the erhu.

It is possible that no one makes silk strings for the erhu anymore, in which case I wonder if anyone has tried using silk strings made for the qin or synthetic "silk-like" strings made for the qin.

[davidmdahl]

I once played on a dahu at Clarion Music in San Francisco that was loaded with silk strings. It was not a pleasant experience. The idea of silk sounds interesting, but I think it would make for a wonkier instrument, with less stable tuning and tone. The modern changes to the erhu, including the metal strings, led to it becoming a much more sophisticated instrument than the folk fiddle it had been before.

You can try any sort of string you want. Guqin silk string is going to be expensive and hard to get, and may not be in a suitable size for erhu. Maybe you can try silk thread from a sewing or craft store. It might be worth trying dental floss.

I am going to stick with good quality erhu strings.

Best wishes,

David

[dsouthwood]

Check this out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haegeum

It looks like the tuning pegs double as spools for the silk strings. They must break often if it is necessary to be able to pull down a replacement string at any moment. At any rate, these would be silk strings made for an erhu-like instrument.

[rojieh]

Thanks for posting this link. It is very interesting. High quality silk strings for musical instruments are difficult to find and have become, even for the qin, something of a lost art with the introduction of metal strings. There is more discussion about the use of silk strings among qin players, and many feel that the silk strings made today are generally inferior to those made a century ago. This discussion of silk strings for the qin actually made me curious about their use on the erhu.

[sanmenxia]

I've got a coconut fiddle (yehu) that had silk strings originally but I changed them to steel (erquan strings since the tuning is G D). About a week ago I got some new silk strings for it, at least the shop said it's silk.

The string has 2 strands twisted together like a very thin rope, each strand is made of extremely fine fibres. The thicker string is quite stiff and the thinner one is more thread like and more floppy. They came in a very long length and the shop cut off about a metre for me. I've already broken the thin string twice!. Luckily the break was not between the qianjin and the bridge so I just tied it back together with a knot. I'm not sure if the tension was too high but I've move the qianjin closer to the bridge to reduce the tension. Maybe it should be slightly thicker.

The most obvious thing is they are more quiet and more floppy compared with metal strings. As I haven't tried other strings with different thicknesses, so I don't know if the strings I'm using give the best sound, without them breaking.

As for the tone, it's hard to say but perhaps it's more throaty, more mellow and less penetrating. At the same time it's seems less stable and less even. It might be my lack of technique. I think you need a different style of bowing; maybe less weight but a faster bow speed.

[George]

I've not tried them myself, but silk strings for erhu and zhonghu are on sale at translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkinugen.cyada.org%2F&act=url. (Edit: they won't ship outside Japan, sorry.) There are also some silk-strung erhu recordings there.

[davidmdahl]

Carol of Sound of China (www.chinesezither.net) mentioned on her forum that she recently purchased a set of silk erhu strings from a Japanese company, and liked the results.

www.marusan-hashimoto.com/english/

Now I am interested. Unfortunately Marusan Hashimoto does not sell retail, so I will have to wait until Carol is ready to order. It does sound like fun.

Best wishes,

David

[George]

It does indeed sound like fun.

[George]

There's a nice article by Colin Huehns on the pre-1949, silk-strung erhu (www.google.com/search?q=The+'Early+Music'+Erhu). He owns (and plays) one himself.

His is rather dainty, but most probably looked more like this:

[davidmdahl]

Cool photo, George. Do you know anything about the player and his location?

Best wishes,

David

[George]

Fraid not. I just found it at en.radio86.com/chinese-culture/what-do-they-play-erhu.

[carol]

Here are the pictures of the erhu silk strings I bought from Marusan Matsumoto. They are very refined. The texture is not rough like other silk strings. They are certainly a lot thinner than the haegeum strings. In my opinion it's easier to bow this silk string than the metal strings. It's easier for me to "not" getting the squeaky sound. I'm just a beginner in erhu any way. The sound is smoothier and rounder. However, it has less dynamics than the metal strings.

[George]

Wow! When can we buy them?

[carol]

I finally able to get some silk strings from Marusan Hashimoto. It took me a while, and I'm glad that it finally works out.

Please check my website if you would like to purchase a set.
www.soundofasia.com/erhu.html

I also got some zhonghu and pipa silk strings from them as well.

Thanks,

Carol

[George]

Thanks Carol! I've ordered a couple of packs.

[sanmenxia]

That yellow colour looks weird, off-white would look better.

[davidmdahl]

I don't know, I think the yellow is kind of cool. The Chinese silk strings are more whitish. My set should arrive this week. I will post my impressions.

Best wishes,

David

[George]

I will too. In the meantime, Tan Dun's score for Hero includes a violin fitted with silk sanxian strings, in emulation of the lost qinxianzi of the Warring States Period. In the hands of Itzhak Perlman it sounds wonderful: youtu.be/A0RLMOulL84?hd=1.

[George]

Well, I've not had much luck so far with the silk erhu strings: they're wolfing hard. It could easily be my fault, since I foolishly changed everything else about my setup when I put them on. Is there some secret in the Chinese text on their labels that I should know about?

Edit: I just checked Colin Huehns's article, as I should have done earlier. He writes that

silk strings break easily and it is common for strings simply to snap in performance; silk strings also loose their pitch quickly like gut violin strings. However, the sound difference is immense and, in this respect, the timbres produced by strings made of these two different materials belong to two different worlds. The silk string sound is soft and gentle, almost woolly, but also very beguiling; the metal string sound is more robust and smooth. Under the fingers, silk strings have a finely woven texture which caresses the fingertips; metal strings feel hard and smooth. Silk strings tend to give a soft attack and react only gradually to friction with the bow-hair - a lot of rosin is required: metal strings are much more instantly responsive. In higher registers, silk strings are particularly weak and open strings tend to produce wolf notes - not so metal strings. While these are not insurmountable problems by any means, tuning silk strings to lower pitches than metal strings certainly helps.

The bows used by both instruments also show marked differences. Most likely to have greatest impact on the sound is the difference between the width of the bow-hair: with the early music erhu, there are perhaps a quarter of the number of strands of the modern erhu bow-hair. Silk strings snap too easily for there to be any more strands on the early music bow. The sheaf of strands is cylindrical with the early music erhu bow; it is flat with the modern erhu bow and held flat by metal or plastic flattening sheathes through which it passes at both point and heel. These differences have a considerable impact on the volume and timbre of the sound produced: the sound is thicker, richer and louder with the modern erhu bow and quieter and more delicate with the early music erhu bow. The shape of the bow is also different: with the modern erhu bow, the bow-stick and hair run broadly parallel for much of their length; with the early music erhu, the bow is much more arched, particularly towards the point. The early music bow is also shorter than the modem bow. The tension on the bow-hair is also different: much looser on the modern erhu bow; this is perhaps because innovations and improvements in bow technique have given modern players the ability to be able to control and manipulate a looser bow-hair.

Tuning down to erquan pitches does help, but it doesn't eliminate the wolves. Perhaps my bow's due for a haircut.

[carol]

Hi George:

I remember my friend had the wolfing problem when he was using a high quality professional bow. That bow has a lot of hair, and it is thicker in the middle part. When bowing through, the string doesn't even stay in a steady pitch. He had to change back to his old bow, which is considered not as good quality for metal strings but suits the silk strings perfectly.

Luckily, I found a video of the Marusan Hashimoto's erhu silk string. I believe this was taken last year in Music China.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqDbhs7JVrk

I hope this helps.
I don't think you need to tune it lower. The strings still feel pretty loose when tuning in D and A.

[George]

Thanks very much for the tip.

[edcat7]

George, I think it may be your Yhi shi bow. I use my yhi shi bow on my MRX and there a lot of wolf-tones which when i change the bow I don't get.

Not sure which erhu to use for my performance tonight.

[George]

Interesting. I'll try my old WXD and maybe give it a trim.

In your place I'd be tempted to take both erhus in order to demonstrate, exhaustively, their tonal differences. Any talking at the back would be punished by my restarting from the beginning.

[George]

OK, the frog on my Yin Shi started coming away from the stick, so I decided to sacrifice the bow in the interests of science. Even snipping away half the hair didn't completely get rid of the wolves, probably because the hair-tightening mechanism was broken so that the hair was at maximum looseness. To compensate I invented a new bow-hold in which I used my middle finger to push the hair taut. That did the trick, at least when my bowing was perfectly smooth.

The strings sound much less bright than metal, and a little hoarse, in a way that might suit some music better than metal. The range of tone qualities you can get from them seems narrower, and the basic sound less complex, perhaps a bit bland. They might be at their best in ensembles, where I imagine they wouldn't produce the wailing effect of a metal-strung erhu section, and I expect that (as one might hope) they'd make a very pleasant accompaniment to flutists in silk and bamboo music.

[davidmdahl]

I have had my silk strings on a MRX erhu for about a week and a half. So far they have been a disappointment. I made a few recordings on the previous strings to provide a comparison, but I can't make a good recording yet with the silk, at least that I would want to share. I may try some different bows to see how much that helps, but I am not strongly motivated right now to spend much time on it.

After all of this, I got a chuckle over this story:

Spider silk spun into violin strings

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058

I guess that in the search for perfection, there is always something else to try. Anything but more practicing. <g>

Best wishes,

David