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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 9, 2006 12:05:47 GMT
I have a dent on the playing surface of my qin, which is beginnibng to impede my play. It is situated in the line of string five at the 11th hui and everytime I play a note there, my ring fingernail seems to get caught in it and dig into the hole. The wood is showing as well and I mustn't leave it too late to repair. I want to repair it by the time of the summer school. So, I'm going to re-lacquer that bit (as well as make repairs to structural cracks at the back of my qin whilst I'm at it). I found this site which sells small amounts of lacquer at an affordable price. www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp/english/index.html3,500 yen for clear urushi. They sell deer horn powder as well (tsunoko) for 1,300 yen. Around £25 in all. Will tell you how I get on with the repair when I come to it. |
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Post by blueharp on Jun 9, 2006 18:57:12 GMT
Be careful with Urushi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is VERY toxic. I don't think you have poison ivy or poison oak in England, but it is from a related plant. Some people are very allergic to it and require hospitalization if they are exposed to it.
I was told about someone that "blowed up like a pufferfish" and required 3 days in the hospital from the merest touch of urushi.
Urushi doesn't dry either. It "cures" and needs a specific temperature and humidity for it to happen. If conditions are not right it can take weeks and in some cases over a year to cure.
Have you considered Kashu for the touch ups? It is "artificial" urushi and is non-toxic.
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Post by calden on Jun 9, 2006 20:03:44 GMT
Wow - that sounds heavy, dudes.
I use good old shellac for all kinds of musical instrument touch-ups. It goes on to lacquer, oil finish, or plastic finishes, and can be tinted to match anything. It will degrade with some kinds of sweat or lots of exposure to alcohol. That wouldn't apply here, because we all know that CCC 1) doesnt' sweat and 2) drinks only Coke. But I would certainly look at something easier to get, cheaper, and easier to work with.
Carlos
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Post by Si on Jun 10, 2006 1:43:08 GMT
when you say structural cracks - are you talking about the wood splitting were it has been joined togather?
is it common to have cracks when the qin is a few years old?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 10, 2006 8:41:27 GMT
Would have went with cashew but I heard it doesn't last as long as real urushi. And I doubt it will stand up to the fingering.
I'll have to get some gloves and a respiritor for the work, which is really minuet work. I'll have to select a day where it will be humid enough to make the lacquer cure quicker. One things for sure, must do it before the summer school at the end of July.
Structural cracks. Basically, there is a crack at the back board of my qin which is caused by a natural fault in the wood (it is visable). It is not cracking at the joint, etc. It has stablised, so I can now seal it. May happen to qins which have visable faults on them (a big dark line is often one), which will crack when you move it to a different environment. But as long as it doesn't crack on the surface, then it is not a problem. Cracks to the joints, surface, etc needs attention from a qin maker to fix.
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Post by blueharp on Jun 10, 2006 8:58:24 GMT
My various contacts have found cashew to be quite sturdy. Urushi is simply the pinnacle of hardness.
Keep in mind that it is a combination of high humidity and temperature that cure urushi. By all accounts it is not something that is to be rushed. Wang Peng reportedly cures his guqins for 3 years to ensure maximum hardness.
I don't want to discourage you from trying it, just treat it very carefully.
Good Luck!
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Post by Si on Jun 10, 2006 18:16:44 GMT
yeah you will not be able to practice for a few weeks in that case. I think it sounds a bit risky to me - england is not humid unless you can leave the qin in kew gardens tropical plants green house for a while?
Maybe the summer school teacher can help you fix it?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 10, 2006 22:13:46 GMT
How can Gong Yi lacquer a qin in 5 days? Anyways, even my qin buddy Dannong is planning to do some lacquer repair work on his qin.
Worry not, my chavs. I can always get a humidifier (a cheap one comes at around £34)...
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Post by calden on Jun 10, 2006 22:26:00 GMT
yeah you will not be able to practice for a few weeks in that case. I think it sounds a bit risky to me - england is not humid unless you can leave the qin in kew gardens tropical plants green house for a while? ENGLAND IS NOT HUMID??? You've obviously never lived in the American Southwest. Compared to Phoenix, England is a dripping, sodden mass of humid wetness 24/7. But of course, you're comparing it with Shanghai. The most uncomfortable humidity I ever felt was in Shanghai in August. Right up there with Washington DC. But then I've never to Taipei in September. Carlos |
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Post by blueharp on Jun 11, 2006 7:24:08 GMT
How can Gong Yi lacquer a qin in 5 days? THIN layers of lacquer. If it is applied too thick it never fully cures. It will continue to cure for quite a while after it is seemingly "dry". I was told the finish of one of my instruments would continue to harden for 10 to 15 years after it was finished. Let us know how it turns out! |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 11, 2006 8:08:16 GMT
Well, I'd rather spend my summer school learning qin rather than sit there waiting for paint to dry...
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Post by Si on Jun 12, 2006 16:40:03 GMT
what i ment was that as you have a world famous qin teacher at the summer school and it would be a missed oppertunity not to ask him for some tips/help. Maybe he knows the best way or even a friend in england that can help.
Basically - its a waste not to use this expert as you only have him for a week. And I think they will be happy to help in any way they can for their fellow qin players all over the world.....!
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 12, 2006 21:45:07 GMT
I don't think GY is well versed in qin making as Zeng Chengwei last year was, but I didn't ask him about the lacquer at the time. Today was the prefect day to lacquer the qin as we had a thunderstorm in the morning and a light drizzle in the afternoon, pushing the humidity to just over 60% @ 24 C. But My lacquer is still in the ordering process. Silly British weather...  |
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Post by sanmenxia on Jun 13, 2006 0:04:11 GMT
Haha! it was up to 32 degrees  (phew wot a scorcher!  ) today here in the SE, Gong Yi would have felt right at home  |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 13, 2006 8:30:58 GMT
32?! Not very good weather to play qin with silk strings unless you're in a well conditioned room...
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Post by Si on Jun 14, 2006 17:08:26 GMT
talking of humidity.
I have a place in singapore ( cos I used to live there) so I was wondering about how a qin will stand up to the hot humid enviroment there especially if you like to use the AC for cooling, which will cause temp changes?
will the qin split easy?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 15, 2006 8:46:21 GMT
The key here is to keep the climate constant. Sudden changes may cause it to warp. A good climate for qins in general is a humid one, as most qins are made in China which has a humid environment. Zeng Chengwei's, for example, must be kept in such an environment. Qins made in less humid environments can generally last well in the Western countries better. One of the qins of Christopher Evans (a ZCW qin) actually split at the joints (you can see big cracks) and is warping, even though he hung his qin up.
Basically, if the qin does not warp or crack within one year, then it is mostly safe as it has stablised after the initial year.
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Post by calden on Jun 15, 2006 12:13:48 GMT
With guitarmaking, it's generally noted that it's best to make a guitar in a dry environment. That way, wherever else it ends up will probably be more humid. The wood will take on that extra humidity and slightly swell, making joints tighter and keeping glue from drying out (assuming it's water based glue, not resins.)
I live in a dry-ish climate (except for this month! We're seeing 100-year record rainfall...) and it's a great place to make instruments. However it's also known to be a place where you have to wait a few years to see what a new instrument will do. It's quite common to have a nice guitar develop little problems like tiny hairline seam splits, pickguards starting to lift, and frets starting to stick out past the edges of the neck. All easily fixable, but annoying nonetheless.
Luthiers generally thus use only well dried and seasoned and properly cut wood, and also tightly control the humidity in their shops. I also use humidifiers in my instrument cases, especially in the winter when it's cold and dry. I can see where a qin made in a humid environment is easily susceptible to damage in a drier climate - it's a lot of surface area in the wood, and a little bit of drying will translate into big movements.
Carlos
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 15, 2006 14:06:04 GMT
My qin table has a crack in it due to climate change. Not a serious one, but irritatingly noticable nevertheless...
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 16, 2006 8:52:24 GMT
Got it in the post today! Wow, the tube of lacquer is bigger than I expected... I suppose it is enough to lacquer a katana, maybe one layer all over for one qin.
Will tell you how I got on.
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 16, 2006 12:34:17 GMT
Pics!  Before process  The 'hole' on the surface of the qin  Crack at the back of the qin  Mixing the lacquer with the deer horn powder I've applied the lacquer to the qin now. Also patched up the 'xingyun wen' (running-cloud markings) caused by waring of the lacquer from sliding on the strings. Now I'll wait for it to cure. Then polishing and applying a coat of clear lacquer, then curing and polishing. Also lacquered the yueshan after I planed it down a while back to seal it. On the plus side, I seem to have not had an allergic reaction to the lacquer! My mother said that the lacquer stank of doggy do-do... |
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Post by Si on Jun 17, 2006 3:59:48 GMT
Those little specs on the 2nd pic down, is that the deer horn powder?
Do you have to sand down the gunk that you have filled in the hole with?
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 17, 2006 7:03:57 GMT
The specks are deer horn powder that shows on the lacquer of the original qin. That's how it came. Looks better than a completely all coloured one.
I didn't sand down anything. The hole, I guess, needs to be filled with something which I don't have, so I won't be able to close it, only seal it from exposure by lacquering over it.
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Post by calden on Jun 17, 2006 13:00:25 GMT
CCC:
From the picture, I can't tell exactly how big this hole is. Sounds like you've got it all under control, doggy-poo smell and all. But for next time, Here are some ideas from the world of guitar-making for correcting blemishes and filling holes...
1) mix some fine sawdust of the native wood with the lacquer to a peanut-butter consistency, pack it in the hole and let it firm up, thenslightly sand or scrape to bring down to level, then finish
2) mix sawdust with gel super-glue... this will cure very fast and can be lacquered over much sooner
3) taking a shallow and very small cut, using a special spoon-shaped knife, which includes the blemish. Then take a simliar size cut from a piece of wood of same type, color, and grain structure and patch it in, clamping it with weight and glueing it with superglue. finish as usual
4) if it's only a small dent, one could gently put a few drops of hot water on it - very small amount, just enough to moisten the dented area, then put a towel on it. use the tip of an iron to carefully heat up the dented area. The dented area will swell out. This process is done all the time and works quite well.
Carlos
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Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 17, 2006 15:48:15 GMT
Pic 2 'dent'. The lacquer was worn to the wood, so must use lacquer to patch it up. As for the big crack, I hardly can obtain paulownia sawdust at this juncture.
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(phew wot a scorcher! 
) today here in the SE, Gong Yi would have felt right at home 