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Post by dsouthwood on Sept 1, 2007 0:37:57 GMT
Does anyone have a transcription of Jiu Kuang by Wang Zhongshan? I would love to play that on the guzheng. Does the music exist in either Western or Simplified notation?
Dennis
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 3, 2007 3:02:32 GMT
My guzheng teacher may know as she was a student of Wang's (but no promises!). Or perhaps you should ask this question in the guzheng forum.
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 20, 2007 4:02:54 GMT
Does anyone have a pet version of a Jiu Kuang (recorded) performance to recommend? I mean a CD recording. I've got the Lao Ba Zhang (the legendary set of 8 CDs) along with others but please let us know what your favourite is! And I understand that someone like Gong Yi plays this piece in a unique way...
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 20, 2007 13:48:02 GMT
ZHANG ZIQIAN. As I've said like three other times in this very thread.
Gong Yi plays what I would consider a parody of Jiu Kuang. He makes it about portraying drunkenness in a theatrical manner, instead of embodying the spiritually elevated tipsiness that the piece actually talks about.
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 20, 2007 18:54:59 GMT
V true. Jiu Kuang is one of GY's least successful pieces, contrived and overblown, unlike his Shen Ren Chang and Da Hujia, which are both excellent.
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Post by guzhenglover on Sept 21, 2007 2:06:49 GMT
ZHANG ZIQIAN. As I've said like three other times in this very thread. Gong Yi plays what I would consider a parody of Jiu Kuang. He makes it about portraying drunkenness in a theatrical manner, instead of embodying the spiritually elevated tipsiness that the piece actually talks about. Well thanks anyway. You probably did mention three other times about the favourite recording and it's not that I didn't take notice but, rather, it just didn't mean much to me at the time as I wasn't learning this piece. Now I am - despite what I said elsewhere about not liking this piece very much. I just thought that I needed to find out for myself whether I'd truly like or hate this piece by learning it first so that I can come to a more objective conclusion about the value of this piece. I don't think I've heard a recording of GY's rendition of this piece, and neither you nor Charliecharliecho seems to think very much of it. As I understand it, it's uniquely (in)famous because he's the only one (or one of a very few?) who treats the rhythm like the western 3/4 time, rather than the more common 6/8 time. So is there nothing that could be learnt from listening to GY's interpretation? I am not doubting you guys, just wondering. But I do rather like ZHANG Ziqian's version of Jiu Kuang as I happen to have a CD with his playing. Anybody else with any other pet versions? |
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Post by Charlie Huang on Sept 21, 2007 7:16:47 GMT
Not exactly... He basically changes the rhythm, tempo, dynamics, et al. all the way through in a rather chaotic, 'drunk-like' way.
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Post by Si on Sept 21, 2007 9:52:26 GMT
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 21, 2007 16:42:16 GMT
Triple time is quite frequently used for Jiu Kuang and some players use quintuple time. There are two well known players (John Thompson and Liang Ming-Yueh) who use quadruple time and then there those who try to use a more flexible rhythm to portray either a state of drunkenness or the progression from sober to drunkenness. And as SCWGuqin says, there are different ideas of what drunkenness is, ranging from civilised joviality to "falling-down-legless-and-puking".
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Post by Si on Sept 22, 2007 2:52:53 GMT
maybe you could all try playing the piece while drunk!
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 22, 2007 3:43:01 GMT
I've played it while drunk many a time. I have to say...it was not as good an experience as playing it sober!
My personal feelings about the piece are these. Everyone loves the relaxation, energy, and whimsy that comes with a *certain level* of intoxication. Those old Chinese guys with beards and funny hats were no different. Relaxation, energy, and whimsy is not just a great experience--and totally compatible with dashing off poetry etc.--it also has religious/philosophical significance via the ideal of wuwei. I approach Jiu Kuang as a way to sort of embody or get into that groove--a wuwei groove plus a thing or two specifically derived from alcohol.
To my ear, the masters who come closest to this are Zhang Ziqian and Yao Bingyan. Yao is good, but Zhang is simply transcendent. I regularly use his recording as an example of the height music can scale by doing subtle, interesting rhythmic-dynamic-timbral articulation of a simple melodic line. Even Carnaticists have been impressed...
On the subject of Zhang Ziqian...as far as I'm concerned his best performances are of Jiu Kuang and (his specialty) Long Xiang Cao. The late-period metal-string Long Xiang Cao is transcendent-above-transcendent, and illustrates perfectly that physical technique can deterioriate without touching musicality.
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Post by carol on Sept 27, 2007 22:17:44 GMT
You can use the guqin staff notation and just play it on the guzheng. It's in F key. Wang Zhong Shan plays in F as well. I tried to play it in G, and it sounds pretty nice.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 28, 2007 0:01:38 GMT
F key...G key...
bah!
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Post by carol on Sept 28, 2007 0:43:56 GMT
hey, I know it doesn't really matter in guqin. You read the music as string#3, string#6hui#9, no matter how you tune it.
But in guzheng you don't read the music as string#10 or string#12, you read as do rei mi fa sol. There got to be a key reference. The reason I use G is because my guzheng is generally tuned in G, and it's too much trouble to tune to F just to play one song.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 28, 2007 0:47:25 GMT
No, I don't mean it that way. The standard system for talking about modes in Chinese music ought to be gong-shang-jiao-zhi-yu, specifying absolute pitch as necessary for the tonic. Everything else is chong yang mei wai...
Of course I chong fan mei tian (truckle and toady to Sanskrit-trafficking Indians) when I say sa-ri-ga-ma-pa-da-ni-sa would help too.
Key is a chordal/tonal concept not relevant to traditional Chinese music.
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 28, 2007 4:01:36 GMT
OK, I'm officially coining 崇梵媚天;. It worked in the 1st millennium, didn't it?! I was recently informed that one of the books of literary theory that found use in Tang-period examinations was originally composed in Skt.
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 28, 2007 9:08:42 GMT
The standard system for talking about modes in Chinese music ought to be gong-shang-jiao-zhi-yu, Don't you mean "gong-shang-JUE-zhi-yu"? That's what the best dictionaries say. :-) This gives me a problem too. Why should transcriptions of pentatonic music with gong = F need to mark B as flattened? It hardly ever occurs and there is one as an accidental or passing note, what's wrong with flattening it as it occurs? |
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Post by davidmdahl on Sept 28, 2007 17:20:38 GMT
It is not for me to say what framework Chinese musicians should use when talking about their music, but we in the West use key without much trouble in a variety of contexts where it does not always fit completely. Other musical traditions besides Chinese use modes, pentatonic and otherwise. It is convenient to use key and concepts relating to key when they fit.
Communication among musicians is what is important. Use whatever terminology gets the message across.
Best wishes,
David
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Post by SCWGuqin on Sept 28, 2007 17:31:13 GMT
Communication is important, but so is elevation of understanding. oopsdidijustgivevoicetotheinsufferableelitistdidacticismthatistheverysoulofchinesephilosophicalculture
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Post by charliecharlieecho on Sept 29, 2007 8:31:33 GMT
It is not for me to say what framework Chinese musicians should use when talking about their music, but we in the West use key without much trouble in a variety of contexts where it does not always fit completely. As David says, it is not for us to tell the Chinese (by which, in the context of the qin, we mean Han Chinese) what the best description of their music is, though we can reasonably ask them for a description based in Han theory. The problem is that Han musicians and musicologists today reach for keys as the first way of describing their music to each other. This isn't new - it goes back at least to Wang Guangqi, who studied western music theory in Germany in the early 20th century - and seems to be unconsidered. If people were able to show by argument that keys are the better theory for Han music, then my concerns would be met, but so far I haven't heard of anyone engaging in that argument. |
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Post by guzhenglover on Oct 12, 2007 4:43:02 GMT
As I am gradually learning to master this piece (if I'd ever!!), I am actually finding it quite a lot of fun to play. I esp. enjoy the guizhi sections - which is itself quite surprising 'cos if you'd asked me a few months ago, I'd have been quite put off by the guizhi technique as I used to find them rather daughting (as i am sure some of you remember).
Um...not sure I'd like the orchestral version of Jiu Kuang, though...
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Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 12, 2007 15:15:18 GMT
See how things fall into place given the time. Such is the enjoyment of discovery and exploration.
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Post by guzhenglover on Oct 14, 2007 4:24:58 GMT
Yes!!
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