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Jinyun
Oct 15, 2005 21:15:42 GMT
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 15, 2005 21:15:42 GMT
After reading some praise for Jinyun guzhengs, I did some Googling and found some interesting pictures: www.orientalmelody.comI find it curious that many of the photos show a rather dark sound board. If dark soundboards can indicate a quality problem, does it necessarily mean so with respect to Jinyun? Best wishes, David
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Jinyun
Oct 15, 2005 22:43:16 GMT
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 15, 2005 22:43:16 GMT
*raises eyebrow*
Hmmm, is it me or does those descriptions et al match those of CCN's description word for word...
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 1:13:26 GMT
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 16, 2005 1:13:26 GMT
Yes, even the policies section is word-for-word lifted from CCN. You don't expect them to reinvent the wheel? <g> I don't particularly like no-return policies since they don't inspire a lot of confidence, but as a practical matter, it would be expensive to return an instrument to Singapore.
I know nothing about this business good or bad. I was just looking for pics of Jinyun guzhengs.
Best wishes,
David
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 5:57:59 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 16, 2005 5:57:59 GMT
hmmmm, it's tricky! Well, Jinyun used to make guzheng with the darkest sound boards and plywood backboard. Light board and paulownia backboard are only available to the zitan models or custom-made models. Even the high respected Nanmu carving model uses dark board with plywood back.
I had experience ordering 20 custom-made guzhengs using light boards from them, but the board color and sound turned out really unsatisfied. That stopped me from ordering from them.
However, I do see them making more light boards recently on mid-high models. Don't know how they sound like.
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 12:13:29 GMT
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 16, 2005 12:13:29 GMT
Begs the question of whether CCN copied Jinyun or was it the other way round? It could mean CCN guzhengs are from Jinyun. But it's best for me to keep it there in case more unnecessary silly little incidences crop up.
Strange to say, there was a discussion on the dead forum about the correct term for 'nanmu', which is certainly not sandlewood (which is tan or zitan). The best I found was in a Japanese dictionary that classifies it as 'camphor wood'. Shanmu is also a bit of a pain to find out it's meaning, and I get things like Chinese fir and Japanese cedar (not strictly cedar) cropping up.
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 15:29:12 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 16, 2005 15:29:12 GMT
I always thought CCN's guzhengs are from Long Feng.(Dragon Phenoix)
Any way, is n't "shanmu" spruce? That's what I got from the dictionary. I went to take a look of guitar board that's made of spruce, and the grains matches the grains on my shanmu guzheng.
Nanmu shouldn't be sandalwood. It's really confusing, since they also have "hong tan" as a kind of frame, which I literally translated into "red sandalwood."
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 19:33:05 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 16, 2005 19:33:05 GMT
It is all very confusing and tricky because unless you hear it straight from the mouths of the luthier on your instrument, and in the most fluent english possible, there is little you really will know about what is all involved. There are millions of websites about guitar and violin making on line and extremely detailed charts and graphs to show woods and their properties, characteristics and best applications for sound. The Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese instruments luthiers community need to shape up and get with the times. Most of their sites and descriptions are extremely vague and the wording reads like one another too much.
You will always find that just simply looking at the face of the wood once its made into something will not tell you a heck of a lot about what that wood is. That piece could have been treated in many different ways in many different steps to become a finished product. You need to actually find the source wood in its original cut form to know what it is and then make comparisons from the stock wood before it hits the production line.. A lot of woods out there look terribly similar to the next. With an untrained eye and not knowing what to really be looking for -- you will only assume it is this or that wood. There are special instruments and magnification tools used to figure out woods and their liniage (their parent trees).
I stumbled across a few scientific websites solely dedicated to the botanical names and catagories soft and hard woods from across the globe. Except they do not include a lot of the exotic woods from China or Japan, only the more common woods such as the rosewoods... There is a botanical code to naming woods. There are many many species synonyms.
It is great that the guzheng manufacturers have open their business doors to custom made instruments. That means you will definitely recieve a quality instrument. However unlike the Americas when it comes to instrument making and sales of "high quality" instruments which will be regulated by strict codes of conducts. Makers in America are required to state in writing all the materials in making the instruments and there is no room for falseness. I hope that with the Chinese guzheng makers that what you ask for is what you actually get. The return policy is very necessary in this case because they it is truly custom so they must get it right the first time around. I wonder if the Chinese makers have a regulatory body of luthiers to attest instruments. Sure a representative and writing can say that any instrument could be approved as highest standard grade but do you really know that? How could they help serious buyers to recognize this?
It is wonderful to see the competition of prices for higher and higher quality guzhengs out there, it is very encouraging to see this.
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 21:32:24 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 16, 2005 21:32:24 GMT
I think in guzheng market, the price is droping dramatically on the basic models. It's almost to the level that the price just barely enough to cover the cost of the wood. I sometimes find guzheng that's cheaper than the hard case.(Hard case uses more wood.)
However, on the high end ones, the price is going up every time I go to China. The makers have slower yield than the increase demands on high quality guzheng. For a very best guzheng that cost 20,000RMB, there are just so many people in China who can afford this price nowadays then the makers can make so many.
Well known makers such as Jinyun can only make 3 zitan ivory model each year.(Their very best model.) They may have to make 10,000 guzhengs using the first grade sound boards to yield 3 great ones. Every time I inquire about this ivory model, the standard reply is always "not available".
The yield rate for a Scarlet Bird 10 is less than 5 each year. Even the biggest factory Dunhuang/Yun, can only produce less than 10 of their very best model, which is not available to the public. Considering millions of people are playing guzheng in China, I think if that's made available to the public, people will pay even for 100,000RMB, and everything be gone within one day.
In the market today, you really need to be more than lucky to get a great guzheng.
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Jinyun
Oct 16, 2005 22:00:24 GMT
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 16, 2005 22:00:24 GMT
Hmm. The situation seems dire for ordinary mortals to acquire a great guzheng, but it does not seem to be that different than what it is like finding other great instruments. Certainly the prices for great versions of western instruments are steep, such as for pianos and violins.
Is there a price-range and type of guzheng that is accessible and rewarding? Where is the "sweet spot" in terms of affordability and quality? It seems reasonable that not everyone really needs a great instrument. I love well-made instruments of all sorts, and we seem to be in a golden age of fine instruments that are available to those willing to seek out quality. Unless someone is unsure that a guzheng is their thing, I don't think that a low-end instrument is necessarily a good move if it means replacing it in a few years. A fine instrument is so much fun to practice on that maybe success is more assured.
Best wishes,
David
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 10:39:00 GMT
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 17, 2005 10:39:00 GMT
I always thought CCN's guzhengs are from Long Feng.(Dragon Phenoix) Any way, is n't "shanmu" spruce? That's what I got from the dictionary. I went to take a look of guitar board that's made of spruce, and the grains matches the grains on my shanmu guzheng. Nanmu shouldn't be sandalwood. It's really confusing, since they also have "hong tan" as a kind of frame, which I literally translated into "red sandalwood." Actually, you might be right there, that CCN sells Longfeng. The pics of their guzhengs are light, not dark like Jinyun. I've been through this old lexicon describing Chinese character form and the scientific names listed by shanmu, nanmu, zimu and even tong do not match currently accepted terms. I might have to e-mail Jim Binkley to enquire about what wood is what. The only ones that one can be sure of are wutong / tong which is Chinese paulownia or parasol tree and zimu which is catalpa. The reason of me investigating these names is because of my future guqin making plans plus someone wrong in the Wikipedia article that nanmu is also used for making qins, which I've never heard anyone using that wood to make qins. I've already tried googling these woods in English and Chinese with mixed or vague results.
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 16:51:17 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 17, 2005 16:51:17 GMT
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 18:16:00 GMT
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 17, 2005 18:16:00 GMT
Well known makers such as Jinyun can only make 3 zitan ivory model each year.(Their very best model.) They may have to make 10,000 guzhengs using the first grade sound boards to yield 3 great ones. Every time I inquire about this ivory model, the standard reply is always "not available". I saw a photo of this model on the Jinyun site posted by Vi An (http://www.jy-cn.cn/en/CPdetail.asp?id=22). Wow, that is a magnificent-looking instrument! The description indicates a lead time of 420 days. I wonder who you have to know to get one of these beauties. Nice light sound board. <g> I find it interesting that the base board is described as made of spruce. I thought that the best guzhengs were supposed to have base boards made of single-piece paulownia to match the sound board. Is that elephant ivory? There might be issues getting such an instrument through US Customs. Best wishes, David
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 19:48:20 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 17, 2005 19:48:20 GMT
Glad you are enjoying the site and pictures. These instruments are okay in my opinion. The guzheng structural design hasn't gone a very long way and has not really made any really new and insteresting innovations yet for me to get too excited over it. One day I hope to get a workshop here opened up with my fellow luthier friends of violin, guitar and harps to also have a NEW line of guzhengs designed by Vi An & COMPANY. Or something like that. Well people, my website needed a major face lift and so here it is all fresh and cleaned up. www.geocities.com/just_vi_anMy best to you always, Vi An
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 21:26:19 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 17, 2005 21:26:19 GMT
I can't open that English site. In their Chinese site, it says the back is one piece paulownia. It is a beautiful model. I've been longing for one for so long. I sold my zitan mica model already. That is their second best model. But to me, it sounds too delicate with no bass. Like a beautiful handicapped lady. (Maybe I am too mean, but I've heard the same opinion from all my friends who has this model or other Jinyun models.)
Well, Jinyun is known for their lack of bass. I think one in the thousands that has descent bass, they decorate it with ivory to make it even valuable.
I don't know if that's real ivory or not. But their zitan ivory bridges definetely use the real ivory. They sound so solid and punchy, very different from bone bridges or plastic bridges.
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 21:32:35 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 17, 2005 21:32:35 GMT
I agree that Chinese makers are really behind in instrument making. They have no control of what the instrument will sound given certain grades of sound boards. Most factories grade their guzhengs after they are made. Yes, they do have attesters, who do the grading. Scarlet Bird is known for that. It grades its instrument to SB5, SB6...SB10 only after the instruments are made. Then, they put on the design of the model graded. The price of SB10 is almost 20 times of the SB5 even though the materials used are similar.
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Jinyun
Oct 17, 2005 22:15:08 GMT
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 17, 2005 22:15:08 GMT
Bloody hell, can't they spell Guqin properly?
Actually, those zhengs there look more like CCN ones.
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Jinyun
Oct 18, 2005 11:48:10 GMT
Post by blueharp on Oct 18, 2005 11:48:10 GMT
I had a chance to try some guzhengs by Jinyun, Longfeng and Dunhuang in San Francisco.
The Jinyun instruments were really disappointing - they were dull sounding compared to Longfeng and Dunhaung ones in the same price range(~$1300). I was shown an exquisite zitan model that had just arrived. Apparently Jinyun only makes a few of that model each year. Gorgeous! It wasn't set up so I couldn't play it.
The Longfeng instruments had a bright sound with a strong bass and the Dunhuang was very sweet and responsive.
Based on that experience I would not choose a Jinyun except for maybe the beauty of the design. Tonally - I just couldn't get excited about any of them.
I asked the shop owner about the one piece bottom boards and he told me that many makers now put a thin veneer of pawlonia over a piece of plywood, giving the appearance of a solid piece of wood, and claim it as "solid one piece bottom". Buyer beware!
Steve
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Jinyun
Oct 18, 2005 12:11:49 GMT
Post by Charlie Huang on Oct 18, 2005 12:11:49 GMT
The qin I got from CCN is Longfeng (so says box it came in), and it is a good instrument. There are a few points that would have made it better, as Zeng Chengwei told me. But as far as I can tell, the Longfeng makers did know what they were doing.
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Jinyun
Oct 18, 2005 17:47:19 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 18, 2005 17:47:19 GMT
*Giggles* We are thinking too much about brand names and expensive exotic woods more than we are really looking at the way in which these instruments are standardised in the construction process. The sellection of woods and the sound in which they seek to achieve. In America, guitar makers send someone out to hand pick the woods and even on their cheapest guitars the woods are graded as tripple "A". Which means that this tripple "A" piece is the best out of the piles of what is considered not suitable woods.
American guitar makers are required by law to disclose the materials used in making that guitar and they are not allowed to be vague.
Basically its up to your ears and fingers with regard to guzhengs. If you hear it and feel it as perfect for you -- that is it. I don't care if its a 300 dollar instrument or a 3000 dollar instrument, if it doesn't sound and feel "it's for you", then its probablly not for you.. My boyfriend has worked with Guild Guitars and he's heard and felt some really bad sounding expensive models with a million custom work done and the most expensive and most exotic of materials. He has been more impressed with some of their lower models as it turns out.
I guess there are two kinds of people in the world of musical instruments or maybe even three:
1- collector: These individuals collect for the beauty and the investment 2- performer: These individuals give life to the instruments they play 4- lover: These individuals simply love the instrument
I have a little bit of each but I strive everyday to be a little less discriminating and become more and more the performer individual who gives life to the instruments I play. It doesn't matter what you are playing -- its how you play it and how will you all your listeners to feel what you feel!
I personally love my Jinyun since the first day I set eyes on it. I mean I got it tailor made to my specs and as the brand name suggests it is very "golden tone" to me. Its a precise sound and an accurate tone for each note I tune it to. It is a warm sounding instrument as it is rosewood with single pieces of top and base board of paulownia. Rosewood is my favorite wood for sound, when it comes to musical instrumets, its the most warm and clear sounding wood for me.
From my experience:
Dunhuangs are quite "bell" ringy sounding instruments (typical guzheng sound); Jinyuns have a warm and crisp accurate sound with very long sustains; Scarlet Bird qinzhengs have very full bodied and pronounced with a wide range of sounds.
Scarlet Bird has a distinctly modern edge to their sound so unusual diatonic tunings for these instruments work much better and uses the full potential of these instruments more than tuning them to standard Chinese pentatonics I've realized..
Best,
Vi An
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Jinyun
Oct 18, 2005 18:24:03 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 18, 2005 18:24:03 GMT
Yeah, Yangzhou companies tend to do that. They put a thin veneer of pawlonia over a piece of plywood. I always have to make sure that's one piece by putting a mirror inside and check if the grains match the outside. God, they are the starter of all the tricks!!!!
Personally, I tend to look at the bad sides of my instruments. Of course, if you ask me to say good things about them, I can go on and on and tell you all the beautys in them. Jinyun has its delicate tone that no one come close.(I mean its top models cut by Xiong Li Qung. The craftman for the lower models really don't know how to cut the middle part of the board right. Maybe Mr. Xiong is hiding his secret from his pupils. ) Scarlet Bird has that booming and robust sound. Dunhuang has the punchy sound that makes it the best choice in the national concert hall. Long Feng has the classical round sound that makes it guqin like. Tianyi has the versatility that united all the good components.
But still, I tend to see the bad parts. Where they can improve. I don't think the golden tone maker should be satsfield with "no bass". That doesn't make sense to me. They have to improve. I don't think the SB maker should stay making instruments that are not clear sounding and yield clear ones by chance.
I think only us players tell them the bad parts of their instruments, thus they are pushed to make better ones. If we are satisfied the way they are, then they will never improve.
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Jinyun
Oct 18, 2005 19:14:19 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 18, 2005 19:14:19 GMT
Yes because we buy their instruments. We matter. We are their market and if we are unhappy they will be depressed.
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Jinyun
Oct 19, 2005 0:05:34 GMT
Post by YouLanFengChune on Oct 19, 2005 0:05:34 GMT
I agree that Chinese makers are really behind in instrument making. They have no control of what the instrument will sound given certain grades of sound boards. Most factories grade their guzhengs after they are made. I totally agree with you. Hence, In Singapore, i'm into instrument making. I talked about Dizi's bamboo, Erhu's skin, and Guzheng boards. There are means and ways of attesting woods and quality, like the Europeans did of their violins. a 13.1% Silicon oxide content, 0.8 % phosphor.... the entire list carries on to ensure a certain limit of resonance for the best melody. I doing it using university resources. Pipa figures are easier to attest. Whether or not these same figures apply to Guzheng is a great concern. A the very least, we think, that with science and technology, coupled with ancient traditions of strict and good craftsmanship, it is possible to raise the standard of Chinese Instruments.
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Jinyun
Oct 19, 2005 4:49:38 GMT
Post by Vi An on Oct 19, 2005 4:49:38 GMT
I think it will be an American who will innovate on the exsisting guzheng and come up with a totally new frame, body and technique of crafting.
It will be exciting to anticipate -- I am holding my breath.
You do not learn and you can not expand if you follow tradition way to strictly. There needs to be room for new thinking and flexibility to dream!
My oh my the new wonders,
Vi An
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Jinyun
Oct 24, 2005 15:46:05 GMT
Post by carol on Oct 24, 2005 15:46:05 GMT
My new batch of Scarlet Bird is unexpected clear! I guess they do make improvements after all.
Really hope to see these factories make more improvements. Maybe I should try another Jinyun after 1 1/2 year, see if they have better bass now.
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Jinyun
Oct 25, 2005 4:59:23 GMT
Post by davidmdahl on Oct 25, 2005 4:59:23 GMT
My new batch of Scarlet Bird is unexpected clear! I guess they do make improvements after all. Really hope to see these factories make more improvements. Maybe I should try another Jinyun after 1 1/2 year, see if they have better bass now. That's good news about the Scarlet Bird. Now if they could just replace the horse and cart with something more interesting. I know it's shallow of me to think that way. The sound is most important. But I have to admit that it is a special pleasure to play an instrument with a design that resonates with me. Best wishes, David
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