questions about tuning small guzheng

[calden]

Hey all:

I'm normally over in the erhu rooms talking about bows, rosin, and serpent skin. However, I've been meaning to bring up guzheng questions here.

About 19 years ago I lived in China and taught English at a university (thus my interest in Chinese music.) While there I studied pipa pretty hard, and brought back several instruments, one of which was a beginner-quality guzheng. I've always been able to fool around with it using pentatonic scales and such, but have never been sure what note to tune it to - what the correct tension of the strings should be. There are also a few red strings at 5-string intervals and I don't know what note of the scale they should be - do, re, mi, fa, etc.

This guzheng is a Xing Hai (Star-Ocean) brand made in Beijing in the middle 1980's. Measurements:

104 cm long, 25 cm wide, and 13 cm high
18 strings
Longest string end to end (not to bridge) 80 cm
Shortest string end to end (not to bridge) 51 cm
Strings #1-5 (low to high) are plain in color.
String #6 is red
Strings #7-10 are plain
String #11 is red
Strings #12-15 are plain
String #16 is red
Strings #17-18 are plain

So, what should this be tuned to? Lowest note should be =?
Also, what scale note falls on the red strings?
I'd also appreciate some idea of how far from the straight (not curved) end should be bridges be?
Any online resources or suggestions for a book for a small 18-string guzheng would also be appreciated.

Thanks a ton to the guzheng gang.

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

Hey Carlos,

You might check out the following URL:

www.huain.com/study/html/prod_1322.html

The chart is for a 21-string guzheng, but it should not be hard to apply the pattern to an 18-stringer.

Best wishes,

David

[blueharp]

Hi Carlos,

My first instrument had 18 strings. I liked the fact that it was apartment sized

Basically the red strings are 5 in jianpu or A. Normally the guzheng 'base' scale is D-E-F#-A-B with the lowest note being the D below the bass clef.

Based on the placement of the red strings the tuning would therefore be A-B-D-E-F#, the lowest string should be red.

When I had my 18 string it originally had brass strings with no colors at all! I restrung it so that it followed the more traditional pattern - 12356 - I could play much of the regular repetoire unless it needed the top 2 strings.

As far as the location of the bridges goes, it is up to you. It is all about the tension and what feels/sounds good.

I believe the recommendation for a full size guzheng is the 1st bridge be about 17cm from the Yue Shan. The rest fan out about a finger-width apart increasing a bit for the lower notes.

Most full size guzheng are about 163cm in length. Your guzheng is about 64% of that so... the first bridge should go in at about 11cm and the others fan out from there.

Good Luck!

Steve

[calden]

Thanks David and Steve for the information. David, I thought I had the largest collection of oddball Chinese music websites but you seem to be the Chinese music website information czar around here as well as Palace Instructor or Chief Eunuch or whatever title it is you've recently arisen to.

Steve, after I wrote my initial question I pulled the guzheng out of the case and found an old used book underneath the instrument. I vaguely remember getting it from someone somewhere - full of pencil markings and personal notes. It had a diagram for the tuning and strings with the red strings being "5" or D, but placed the whole thing in G tunin,. This guzheng in the book's diagram had only 16 strings, and mine 18, so it seemed to work out that if I followed the book's lead for tuning and note placement from the lowest to the highest all I had to do was add a couple of notes on top for the two highest strings, continuing the sequence.

So for now I'm going to stick with that. I still don't know if it's the correct pitch for string tension. It sounds right, and pushing on the non-plucked side of the string for vibrato and bends is very easy. However, the two or three lowest strings are kind of dead and thumpy, so I suspect that it could be tuned up a bit and the bridges moved.

You indicated:
"I believe the recommendation for a full size guzheng is the 1st bridge be about 17cm from the Yue Shan. " The Yue Shan would be the "nut" on the right end, next to where the right hand plucks the strings, correct?

Thanks Steve and David,
Carlos

[carol]

Hi Carlos:

Hope I can offer a little help. When it comes to 18-stringed, it's a little tricky. The older 18-stringed guzhengs follow 16-stringed tuning, tuned in "G", while newer instruments follow 21-stringed tuning, tuned in "D." Then there are also some old ones tuned in "D".

From your description, it sounds like its following 16-stringed instrument with the lowest note being "Sol". Is that use to be red, and replaced by a white string? Since you said the 6th string is also a red one.
So, your current tuning should be right. D(Sol), E(La), G(Do), A(Re), B(Mi) and up.
If you feel it's kind of dead and thumpy, maybe you can try move your bridges to the left and tighten the strings. Since every factory makes guzhengs different, so the standard distance from left/right Yue Shan is just for reference. It also depends on the length of the strings, the height of bridges you are using.

[calden]

carol said:

Hi Carlos:

Hope I can offer a little help. When it comes to 18-stringed, it's a little tricky. The older 18-stringed guzhengs follow 16-stringed tuning, tuned in "G", while newer instruments follow 21-stringed tuning, tuned in "D." Then there are also some old ones tuned in "D".

From your description, it sounds like its following 16-stringed instrument with the lowest note being "Sol". Is that use to be red, and replaced by a white string? Since you said the 6th string is also a red one.
So, your current tuning should be right. D(Sol), E(La), G(Do), A(Re), B(Mi) and up.
If you feel it's kind of dead and thumpy, maybe you can try move your bridges to the left and tighten the strings. Since every factory makes guzhengs different, so the standard distance from left/right Yue Shan is just for reference. It also depends on the length of the strings, the height of bridges you are using.

Yes, Carol, you're right on all counts here. The lowest string is tuned to a sol, and it's white, not red, unlike the other sol strings. It is a bit thumpy so I'll move the bridges away from the yue shan a bit and increase string tension. I'm frankly amazed that the strings are still intact after 20 years. I would have expected at least one to break, but maybe they haven't because I've had it tuned to a lower tension than it ought to be.

I'll try and get up a picture of this thing for laughs. It is SO typical of Chinese instruments I saw all over the place when I lived there in 1986-1987. Poorly fitting parts, lacquer slobbered on and dripping down in places, etc. etc. But the little thing is quite endearing in its own way, and it will be fun to have around the house to pluck out tunes on. It cost me all over $20 or something at the time, and the school I taught at helped us out by shipping a fairly large crate of stuff back home for us. So I naturally bought a bunch of instruments to bring home and play with.

Carlos

[davidmdahl]

calden said:

Thanks David and Steve for the information. David, I thought I had the largest collection of oddball Chinese music websites but you seem to be the Chinese music website information czar around here as well as Palace Instructor or Chief Eunuch or whatever title it is you've recently arisen to.

Chief Eunuch!? No one explained that was going to happen. Is it too late to change my mind? Actually, I justed Googled on guzheng tuning, and the website I listed popped up in a posting on another board. Google doesn't beat knowing the answer first-hand, but it does come in handy sometimes. <g>

By the way, you people who play both Chinese and Vietnamese zithers, can guzheng bridges be used on a dan tranh? Might that improve the sound?

Thanks.

Best wishes,

David

[blueharp]

Thanks Carol for having a concise answer! It is always a pleasure to learn something new.

Carlos, by yue shan I do mean the "nut" to the right, but you seem to have already gathered that.

I must admit to being rather envious of your instrument collection you brought back. Ah well, a symptom of MIAS! I think I'll go buy that nice xiao in F I played the other day to feel better. ;D

Steve

[pk]

davidmdahl said:

... can guzheng bridges be used on a dan tranh? Might that improve the sound? ...

Good thinking.

Obviously, bridges are a critical part of these instruments, and their design, shape, material and quality of manufacturing makes a difference.

There is only one way to find out - experimentation.

The most important will be to make the guzheng bridges fit the curvature of the dan tranh. You may need to use some sand paper and/or a file to modify the guzheng bridges (file the bottom of the bridge to fit the curvature of the dan tranh).

There are some companies that sell spare guzheng bridges - some are more or less expensive. (Lunlun also does.)

[yudingbon]

HI, I'm new here so I just like to say, "Nice to meet you."

Anyway, I have been learning guzheng for about a year now and the tuning for mine seems different from the ones listed here. The reference string (red) on mine is tuned to G, which is 5.

I was just wondering if anyone else uses this tuning?
If not, why am I so different?

[carol]

Is yours a 21-stringed or 18-stinged?

Any way, I've never heard red or green strings tuned in G, normally they are tuned in "A", which is a "5" on D major tuning.

Maybe who ever set the instrument up didn't want to set the strings too tight.

[yudingbon]

Well, mine is a 21 stringed guzheng.

My teacher has always taugh me to tune my guzheng in this manner.
Furthermore, how would not having the strings as tight affect the sound?

[carol]

Tighter strings usually provide brighter sound.
But some people like looser strings for easier pressing.

[dpettus]

Good morning. I have been given an 18 string Guzheng. It has a couple of green strings. The lowest sounding string is green. Does that mean there is a specific way for it to be tuned? Also, I've read some of the older posts. It would seem that the bridges have to be set at a certain distance, which seems to be at the liking of the owner. Yet, I wish that the strings would be almost tight. But, how would this affect the sound/tuning? I also need some help with the tuning itself. It seems that it should be tuned in "G" or "D" according to older posts. Which is correct for a beginner? Also, which tutorials would best help me to learn how to play since this is an 18-string versus the larger room sized models. Thank you in advance!

Dante Pettus

[davidmdahl]

Welcome to the forum, Dante. I have never seen an 18 string guzheng, so don't rely on my comments. I suggest posting your query at www.guzhengforum.com . The forum manager Carol sometimes checks in here, but she probably monitors her own more frequently. Carol is likely to be of help to you.

I suspect that an 18 string guzheng is simply missing the bottom three strings of a 21 string guzheng. Normally, the colored string is A. You might refer to this chart:

www.chinesezither.net/files/DTuningTable.JPG

In general terms, a guzheng can be tuned to whatever key you want, usually D or G, but sometimes C. The trick is going to be determining bridge positions. This is important since the position of the bridge determines the sounding length of the string. The longer the string, the tighter it needs to be to get it up to a certain pitch. Too tight, and the string will be harder to press with your left hand and maybe easier to break. Too loose, and the string will not sound very good. The tuning chart above indicates recommended bridge positions, but I suggest confirming them with Carol.

I am curious, are the strings steel, or conventional? If the guzheng is very old, the strings might need replacing. Carol is a good source for those.

Best wishes,

David