|
Post by Si on Jun 17, 2006 15:51:37 GMT
After seeing the inder-side of your qin it has reminded me of a question :
why do qins have what look like legs at the end near the tuning pegs, when its not possible for the qin to rest on them......?
|
|
|
Post by calden on Jun 17, 2006 17:53:34 GMT
CCC: I wasn't thinking of using those techniques to repair the crack. If it's stabilized ( I think you said it was) then it's probably fine as it is. But you could easiliy obtain a few pieces of the wood somewhere and sand some off for sawdust. Here's a source: www.worldpaulownia.com/html/paulownia_warehouse.htmlI'm sure you could easily find a source in England. Another way to really fix a stabilized crack is to open it up a little more with a v-shaped gouge, being careful to make the v-width consistent through the length of the crack, then make a long and narrow patch of similar color and grain of the wood. Once that's glued in and lacquered, done right, it's hard to even see. Of course, I'm not advocating you do it. You seem to have the situation well in hand. I'm just talking about repair techniques I'm familiar with . By the way, here's an England-related joke I've often used with my bandmates when they return from a trip to England (home for them): James visited England for a few weeks and just got back. While there he saw the Prince of Wales. He wasn't impressed at all. He said "That was no prince, that was just an ordinary whale." (Actually very funny when told - loses something in writing.) Carlos
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Jun 17, 2006 22:52:30 GMT
After seeing the inder-side of your qin it has reminded me of a question : why do qins have what look like legs at the end near the tuning pegs, when its not possible for the qin to rest on them......? They are called peg protectors. When you place a qin on a traditional qin table with a rectangular opening at the top, you put the head of the qin with the tuning pegs hanging inside it. Like this: The peg protectors basically protect the pegs from being hit by the edge of the opening if the qin suddenly slides to the right. Of course, with a modern table, this function is diminished, but it also serves as a stable legs when you stand the qin up vertically on the head. Is that any clearer?
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Jul 9, 2006 16:44:39 GMT
Update on the lacquer:
Well, after being in LA for two weeks, you'd expect the lacquer to have cured by now... Not even close! Some bits are dry, and you can touch it without it coming onto your fingers, but it is slightly stick. It is starting to bond, like half dried paint that you can't wipe off easily. I estimate I need at least a month! Then there is the polishing and adding another layer to do... I think I know what I may have done wrong, and that is I forgot to add some water to the mixture to thin it down so it will cure quicker! There are several things I can consider: 1. Forget it and wait for it to cure as it is; 2. Spray some water or a light mist on the qin every day to try to speed up the curing process; 3. Get a humidifier with the depleted funds I have; 4. Try and remove the undried lacquer off and start over again, this time, adding water/solvent to the mixture to thin it down. 1 seems to be a gamble that it won't dry. It may without me jumping in. But it looks like it will take ages, plus the humidity is really shitty in the UK. 2 is a better option, but I do not no if it would work, and I'm scared it might do damage rather than help the lacquer dry. 3 is good, but I hardly have enough money to get to the Summer School after my JSA was so stupidly stopped because nobody said that they do that if you go on holiday for more than 14 days! 4 is the ultimate measure that may solve everything, but it would depend if I pin pointed the correct problem in the first place. Also, since the lacquer is sort of bonding to the qin, it may be very difficult to remove, like rubbing sticky half dried jam off. Either way, I don't think my qin will be ready for the Summer School, which means I'll have to borrow one off Cheng Yu.
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Jul 16, 2006 15:19:15 GMT
OK, screw the waiting. Onto plan C; strip the half-cured lacquer and start over. I used English Distilled Turpentine (the stuff used in oil paintings) to strip back the lacquer (or rather wipe off). Worked like a charm, but requires some elbow grease. After that, I mixed a new lacquer mixture. It was water, lacquer plus some turpentine. I did not use deer horn powder as it is mostly a overcoat rather than a base coat. I mixed it very well and it turned into a chocolate colour. The color was light brown but changes to a darker brown after a while. When applied, it was more thinner than my previous attempt, and much easier to brush on. It blended well. With it being rather thin, it should dry/cure much much faster; and because I added some water and a solvent base, it should cure in about a week or two, if not in days. Hopefully it will be successful. If it is, I have to decide to add another layer or not. Either way, I will polish it a bit once it's hardened. If all goes to plan, I don't have to borrow a qin from Cheng Yu for the Summer School. Pics: New mixture of lacquer, turpentine and water Qin during lacquering process
|
|
|
Post by Si on Jul 16, 2006 16:11:00 GMT
I was horrified to notice you spell colour the "wrong" way! How could you?
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Jul 16, 2006 21:55:23 GMT
You're horrified?! So bloody hell am I!
*writes "I must spell the word 'colour' right" 1000 times*
|
|
|
Post by Si on Jul 17, 2006 9:00:48 GMT
hahaha - yeah my spelling is crap - sorry all!
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Aug 4, 2006 18:33:10 GMT
Good news! The lacquer is almost fully cured! Just needs a few more days and it's on to the next layer! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Aug 12, 2006 12:11:41 GMT
Next stage.
I used a thick deer horn powder mixture with some lacquer, solvent and water to patch up the cracks at the back of the qin. Dunno if it will cure fully since it is sorta thick to cover the holes... I also used the mixture on the dent on the surface since multiple layers of clear lacquer doesn't seem to fully patch it.
I discovered that lacquer with a high water content cures very quickly, in a matter of days. Basically, I poured water over leftover lacquer about a month ago, covering it completely. It formed a hard layer, then inside, the lacquer is still soft and you can re-use it.
The lacquer cures faster with high water content because it cures through evaporation of the moisture inside the lacquer. The more water there is, the faster it would cure. Less water content means not much water to evaporate, therefore it just sits there, slowly curing, if ever.
Polishing. You can use a stone, for rough work, but it can create lines on the surface. Best use a very fine grit sandpaper (P2500 grit) with water and it will come out very shiny and smooth!
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Aug 15, 2006 15:13:18 GMT
I've applied the final layer of lacquer and am waiting for it to cure. Then, I can polish it and it would be done!
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on Aug 31, 2006 16:28:14 GMT
Finished! Finally finished the lacquer and polished it with P1200 sandpaper! The finish isn't exceptional, but it is good! Pics: Qin before polishing work. Not the patch of deer horn mixture with clear lacquer overcoat. During the polishing process. Before wiping clean. The dark patch in the middle is where the dent use to be. I haven't fully repaired it to 100% invisable, you can still see a bit of it, but it doesn't hinder performance anymore!
|
|
|
Post by Si on May 13, 2007 15:59:08 GMT
Took my qin to the shop today to show them the hole in the varnish which has bubbled up and broken off. Now you can see the wood underneath. See image. They say it normal. I dont believe them!!!!!!! If its so normal then why is it not happening on everyones qin? Has anyone else see a similar thing happen? PS -I can still play it ok, but i want to know the true facts - is it cos mine is a cheap qin or will even a 2,000 USD qin be the same? i106.photobucket.com/albums/m241/syburn/IMG_1896.jpg
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on May 13, 2007 18:13:59 GMT
I have never seen this happen before! Dear me.
Maybe cos your's is a cheap qin. I don't know unless I examine it in the flesh.
I'd advise lacquering over it. 'Holes' in the lacquer are best treated rather than left.
|
|
|
Post by Si on May 14, 2007 1:37:45 GMT
The shop has said they will let me swap it for another after topping up more money. Thats fine I suppose. Although now I dont really trust the shop.
So please everyone, ask your qin friends if they have had a similar problem, i want to get to the bottom of this.
I will might even keep this qin as a "knock about" secondary qin.
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on May 14, 2007 3:37:51 GMT
Just wondering: (1) I know back home some people are allergic to gum trees and/or oleander. I guess similar kind of situation with poison ivy/poison oak? (2) How is all this going to affect your guqin sale, Charlie? Maybe nothing... (3) my teacher tells me that the main thing is to keep the humidity steady. Apart from that, a gradual increase in the temperature e.g. using the air-con wouldn't be a problem as these machines make the temp cool gradually. She just tells me to be wary of sudden changes in temp and, for that matter, extreme temp and/or close contact with sources of heat/cool air. I try not to use the air-con when I can but the temp in the last week or so (in Singapore) has simply been unbearable...
|
|
|
Post by Si on May 14, 2007 4:23:03 GMT
Well your living in the wrong part of Sinagpore or maybe in a landed property.
My place is next to the sea on East Coast and we NEVER use a/c as the sea breeze is lovely.
GZL - ask your teacher about if she has seen a similar problem as I have on my guqin.
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on May 14, 2007 8:06:32 GMT
Once the lacquer dries, it doesn't become 'toxic' anymore...
To be clear, I've given up on selling my qin. Don't want to twiddle my thumbs all day, do I?
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on May 14, 2007 10:34:05 GMT
Well your living in the wrong part of Sinagpore or maybe in a landed property. My place is next to the sea on East Coast and we NEVER use a/c as the sea breeze is lovely. GZL - ask your teacher about if she has seen a similar problem as I have on my guqin. Well I live near Queenstown, and it gets terribly hot and humid here. We have a few gum trees and oleander here in our condo but I didn't mean here. By "home" I mean back in Oz. Re your qin - oh I don't envy your situation syburn, hope you'll get a better qin in the near future if that's what you've been intending to do anyway. I'll ask my teacher when I have my lesson next time. Don't get to have regular lessons, though. Have been far too busy wtih stuff.
|
|
|
Post by laoqinyou on May 14, 2007 21:45:59 GMT
Charlie, when you did your lacquer repair, how did the drying go? any problems? My understanding of your messages is that you put a little water in with the lacquer? Is that right. Looks like the whole thing worked well. I'm going to try real lacquer on a real qin in a month or two. I'm not quite ready yet. For one thing I'm going to try and put the lacquer work in a lacquer drying box and I have to finish building the box.
|
|
|
Post by Si on May 15, 2007 1:30:14 GMT
While you are talking about laquer........ 1.-do people only add one coat of laquer when making a qin? 2.-what might cause a bubbling (or delamination) under the laquer? 3.-are there cheap laquer alternatives that might be used on cheaper qins?
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Huang on May 15, 2007 9:46:46 GMT
My report on my experiences are here (mind you, there are some changes which I want to make since finishing): www.ukchinesemusic.com/Londonyoulanqin/art-ccc-repair.htmlYes, you add water. If you don't, it will never dry! Also, P2500+ sandpaper is better for finishing polish, and for the deer-horn powder, you should be careful not to spead it all over the qin if you a repairing only cracks as it tends to lump. You need to put several layers of lacquer. I'm thinking of adding another layer, but only when I get a very fine grade sandpaper. The one I got (P1500) creates a rather matt finish.
|
|
|
Post by guzhenglover on May 16, 2007 3:04:00 GMT
Are you game enough to try the same thing out on your qin, syburn?
|
|
|
Post by Si on May 16, 2007 7:24:13 GMT
Well thats what mine needs, but it never appealed to me to try it.
If and when I get a new qin and keep this one, then I could have a try as I still would have an instrument to use.
When I took my qin back to the shop i was excepting them to say they could repair it. But in typical china fashion the answer was negative (the maker only live is suzhuo as well, I could take it there my self!!).
My teacher has just confirmed to me that, yes, as i thought, my qin does have a problem with the varnish.
|
|
|
Post by laoqinyou on May 17, 2007 21:27:57 GMT
Re questions:
1. in lacquer (on) furniture making, many many coats. Lacquer needs to be thin to oxidize. The question is perhaps how many coats can you stand to put on? :->. Also there is the consideration of so-called "tai" aka "base", which traditionally is an underlayment of say bone horn powder and lacquer or rock power and lacquer. Some qin makers put it on the top and sides, some have put it on the bottom too. If there is a hole, it may be used as filler. 2. re bubbling, I fear I have no idea. 3. "cheaper" - how cheap is lacquer in China? Charlie mentioned a web site for Japanese artifical lacquer, aka cashew, which is not that expensive. I suspect that cashew may work ok, but nobody really knows. You have to put it on good qin and come back in 500 years after repeated use and owners :-...
j.
|
|